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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-27 4:09 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
If your commander costs 3 or less then its' kinda hard to get that extra etb value when do nothing card costs 4. If your commander costs 4 you have to ask yourself "Do I want to play this do nothing card or my commander?" 11 times out of 10 I would play my commader.

I forgot that people never replay their commanders, and also ONLY jam them the minute they have the mana regardless of board state or other cards in hand.

illuknisaa wrote:
If you are going for value why not just play something that generates value on its' own without needing a 4 mana do nothing card? If you want get more value out of fleshbag marauder you can just play merciless executioner.

This is not how that works. Do you even math?
Your comparison is 4BB to make two bodies and cause each player to sac two bodies, which requires two cards.
Or, spend 6B to make one body and force each player to sacrifice two bodies, which requires two cards.

In the former case you need to have both at once if you're trying to eliminate a specific creature but they have 2 dudes (like say, want to kill Uril but there's an Eternal Witness there), while the second doesn't require you play both the cards in one turn. The first costs less mana (1), but the second also doubles value on everything else. With the second, your Fleshbag and Executioner can kill 4 dudes total.

It's funny you call this card a do-nothing when it literally doubles ETBs. I mean if it's too weak for your elite group of tryhards, then okay...


I really like this card a lot, i'm pretty sure i can jam it into Mimeoplasm, which is sort of a competitive deck. Tons of ETBs but i don't really want to make Torpor Orb an attractive card for people to jam into my meta. Main wincon is stuff like RuneScarred Demon, Craterhoof, and Palinchron. Speaking of which! Palinchron becomes ez pz combo with this out.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-27 11:17 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Alhammarret's ability is a replacement effect as it enters the battlefield, not a trigger when it enters the battlefield. No doubling.

Thank you for explaining my mistake in words, it's a lot more helpful than the word no.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-28 8:25 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tainted Aether seems like a really good combination here. It even sounds like it's from Kaladesh. Hopefully it's in Aether Revolt.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-28 10:42 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Tainted Aether seems like a really good combination here. It even sounds like it's from Kaladesh. Hopefully it's in Aether Revolt.


Oh, yuk. Must consider this.

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I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-29 1:47 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Tainted Aether seems like a really good combination here. It even sounds like it's from Kaladesh. Hopefully it's in Aether Revolt.


Oh, yuk. Must consider this.


So I'm actually going to be building around Panharmonicon now that I realized that interaction. >.>


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-29 6:04 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Epsilon wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Tainted Aether seems like a really good combination here. It even sounds like it's from Kaladesh. Hopefully it's in Aether Revolt.


Oh, yuk. Must consider this.


So I'm actually going to be building around Panharmonicon now that I realized that interaction. >.>

You, sir, are a bad person. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-29 6:12 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
You, sir, are a bad person. :evil:


It's what Kambal would want me to do. Total control of every resource. Living the dream.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-29 12:49 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
You, sir, are a bad person. :evil:


It's what Kambal would want me to do. Total control of every resource. Living the dream.


That's... Brilliantly messed up. Non creature? Drain two. Creature? Sac two. *shudder*

I like it.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 12:52 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
You, sir, are a bad person. :evil:


It's what Kambal would want me to do. Total control of every resource. Living the dream.


That's... Brilliantly messed up. Non creature? Drain two. Creature? Sac two. *shudder*

I like it.


Life gain? Lose it. Graveyard? Exiled. Card draw? Limited to 1 and discard or burn to cast... Energy allocation was just the beginning.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 11:30 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Sovarius wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
If your commander costs 3 or less then its' kinda hard to get that extra etb value when do nothing card costs 4. If your commander costs 4 you have to ask yourself "Do I want to play this do nothing card or my commander?" 11 times out of 10 I would play my commader.

I forgot that people never replay their commanders, and also ONLY jam them the minute they have the mana regardless of board state or other cards in hand.

illuknisaa wrote:
If you are going for value why not just play something that generates value on its' own without needing a 4 mana do nothing card? If you want get more value out of fleshbag marauder you can just play merciless executioner.

This is not how that works. Do you even math?
Your comparison is 4BB to make two bodies and cause each player to sac two bodies, which requires two cards.
Or, spend 6B to make one body and force each player to sacrifice two bodies, which requires two cards.

In the former case you need to have both at once if you're trying to eliminate a specific creature but they have 2 dudes (like say, want to kill Uril but there's an Eternal Witness there), while the second doesn't require you play both the cards in one turn. The first costs less mana (1), but the second also doubles value on everything else. With the second, your Fleshbag and Executioner can kill 4 dudes total.

It's funny you call this card a do-nothing when it literally doubles ETBs. I mean if it's too weak for your elite group of tryhards, then okay...


I don't cast my commander more than once or twice per game simply because commader tax makes the tempo loss too risky to cast them again. Outside of very few commanders most become unplayable after they cost 6+ mana.

Lot of times commander get played as soon as possible because the commander is the "build around me" -card that their deck uses to function. Trying to speculate what cards you have and and what others have played is pointless.

I used fleshbag as an example because it has a functional reprint. Assuming you have all the cards 2x fleshbag is more or less the same as fleshbag + panharmonicon. You play 2 cards and opponents lose two creatures on turn 5 or 6. The point is that you can only draw one of the cards. If you run 2x fleshbag it is more likely that you draw at least one of them and you don't run into an issue where you only draw panharmonicon.

Reason why panharmonicon is a "do nothing" -card is because own its' own it doesn't do anything. You need some other card to take advantage of this. That card also needs to be good enough to justify paying 4 mana and a card. The way I see this card that it gets played in a etb heavy deck and then it blows up in somebody's end step. Controller of parharmonicon gets zero value (I have seen this happen). Worst case is that it gets cast and nothing happens (I've seen this happen). Best case is that it gives good value or even wins the game (I have not seen this happen).


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 1:38 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That's sixty card thinking. While true, it's really not applicable to commander. Most good ETB effects don't have functional reprints to double up with. Many have more than 4 CMC. But neither of those is the main strength of this type of support card. You get twice as many ETB triggers for the cost of one slot, regardless of how many you run. Have 15 ETBs? Now you have the potential for 30, for 16 total slots. In this way it's sort of like a tutor, in that it becomes more of whatever you have.

Watching the floor is sensible, but commander (at least for me) is about seeing where the ceiling is.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 6:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
Outside of very few commanders most become unplayable after they cost 6+ mana.

Lot of times commander get played as soon as possible because the commander is the "build around me" -card that their deck uses to function.

So.... Commanders are both "build around me, comes into play as soon as possible" AND "not worth casting more than one additional time"?
... I would not build around a commander that is not worth it's value in being replayed.

Can we stop for a minute and appreciate that your two statements are contradictory? "The commander is the card their deck uses to function, but is not worth replaying".

Besides actually bad commanders or those that do nothing, all of them are worth replaying at 6. Many insanely great ones are already 6. I can't think of any 4cmc commanders that are not worth replaying at 6.

illuknisaa wrote:
Trying to speculate what cards you have and and what others have played is pointless.

You don't metagame at all?

illuknisaa wrote:
I used fleshbag as an example because it has a functional reprint. Assuming you have all the cards 2x fleshbag is more or less the same as fleshbag + panharmonicon. You play 2 cards and opponents lose two creatures on turn 5 or 6. The point is that you can only draw one of the cards. If you run 2x fleshbag it is more likely that you draw at least one of them and you don't run into an issue where you only draw panharmonicon.

Yes, but in your example with Fleshbag, you still get double triggers on every other etb creature after the Fleshbag. Including Executioner.
You would, of course, not run Panharmonicon if your deck was not running a proper suite of etb effects. So drawing Pan without the Fleshbag would not be a problem in a deck that wants (not just wants, but can actually use) the doubler effect in the first place.

illuknisaa wrote:
Reason why panharmonicon is a "do nothing" -card is because own its' own it doesn't do anything. You need some other card to take advantage of this. That card also needs to be good enough to justify paying 4 mana and a card. The way I see this card that it gets played in a etb heavy deck and then it blows up in somebody's end step. Controller of parharmonicon gets zero value (I have seen this happen). Worst case is that it gets cast and nothing happens (I've seen this happen). Best case is that it gives good value or even wins the game (I have not seen this happen).

I mean, that's the drawback. Ofc it didn't come with a body (yet, power creep incoming in 3 years).
Like i said, you make your group sound really competitive. That doesn't make it a do-nothing card. There are always going to be games where something with exception value sticks for a while and pays for itself. There are always going to be games where you land a sweet threat but it dies to removal. Don't tell you only play only hexproof indestructible creatures? It's actually kind of funny, one of the major ways people try to get value from their creatures so they aren't totally lost against board wipes and stupid 2 mana removals is play bodies that come with etbs.

Your personal experience on Pan can't possibly count for anything yet right? I mean anecdotes over 1 week? I have to chalk this up to conjecture and hope you understand your 1 week experience is damning the card format wide for all metas.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 5:12 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Iluknisaa, have you ever played any combo? How can anyone playing commander dismiss a combo card on the grounds of "it doesn't do anything by itself/immediately". Do you really want me to take the care to list all cards on the current banlist that are like that for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 1:08 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
Reason why panharmonicon is a "do nothing" -card is because own its' own it doesn't do anything. You need some other card to take advantage of this. That card also needs to be good enough to justify paying 4 mana and a card. The way I see this card that it gets played in a etb heavy deck and then it blows up in somebody's end step. Controller of parharmonicon gets zero value (I have seen this happen). Worst case is that it gets cast and nothing happens (I've seen this happen). Best case is that it gives good value or even wins the game (I have not seen this happen).


This logic works great for 1 on 1 "normal" constructed formats. However, this type of thinking really falls apart in a multiplayer, singleton, 100% availability format. There's a 0% chance of not having something to cast along with this which makes the worst case irrelevant. There's a much smaller chance that this will be the largest threat for removal and that people will even have answers immediately because targeted removal is held for the worst threat on the table, not the worst threat YOU play. If someone blows up your Panharmonicon, the next player just casts Doubling Season or Mirari's Wake... one of them eventually sticks. If it sticks, it's going to do something. If it forces removal, it did something so your next threat sticks... There's also a very high chance you can just get it back and recast it.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 3:30 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
"Such a do-nothing card; but gets blown up on your end step every time."
I don't get it.


I may really consider this card for my Mimeoplasm deck though, honestly. The normal win for me has been Palinchron most of the time and there's some cool ETB stuff like Zegana and Rune-Scarred i'd love to pull off.


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