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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-25 10:13 pm 
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illuknisaa wrote:
This card is a trap. It's a four mana do nothing card that might give you some extra value. How many people actually play strionic resonator? Resonator is more versatile and costs only 2 mana and it sees basically zero play. Unless you have some sort of 30 creature blink deck is a very casual meta then maybe you can afford to play this for the lolz.


Resonator has a tap symbol in its activation cost, which limits the shenanigans you can pull off with it. Panharmonicon triggers every time, for free. I agree with your sentiment though.

Which doesn't mean you can't make it work. If you consider Torpor Orb playable, Panharmonicon might be worth it in your opponents decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-25 11:57 pm 

Joined: 2010-Feb-17 1:06 pm
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Location: Europe - Somewhere
I come from the wild wild lands of the Pre Release Weekend, bearing the Words of Wisdom to thou, that thou shall bear witness to the experience of myselves and others, who have had the luck or the curse, to witness the power of the Panharmonicon. Let these tales of terror and hope, these moments of triumph and tragedy, forever be etched into our memory.


This.
Card.
Is.
Nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 5:42 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Shabbaman wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
This card is a trap. It's a four mana do nothing card that might give you some extra value. How many people actually play strionic resonator? Resonator is more versatile and costs only 2 mana and it sees basically zero play. Unless you have some sort of 30 creature blink deck is a very casual meta then maybe you can afford to play this for the lolz.


Resonator has a tap symbol in its activation cost, which limits the shenanigans you can pull off with it. Panharmonicon triggers every time, for free. I agree with your sentiment though.

Which doesn't mean you can't make it work. If you consider Torpor Orb playable, Panharmonicon might be worth it in your opponents decks.


The difference between 4 mana and 2 mana is huge. I can afford to play a 2 mana spell that does nothing on turns 2-5 and then on turn 6 cast narset and get that sweet extra value on turn 7 but you can you name a single commander that can get direct value out of Panharmonicon? I looked through gatherer and it gave me very meh results. Dragonlord Silumgar and Bladewing the Risen look like the only ones.

If I play Torpor Orb I hope my opponents play Panharmonicon because it pretty much means I win.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 6:21 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
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Location: Oakland, CA
illuknisaa wrote:
can you name a single commander that can get direct value out of Panharmonicon? I looked through gatherer and it gave me very meh results. Dragonlord Silumgar and Bladewing the Risen look like the only ones.
Well, earlier in the thread someone already mentioned Prime Speaker Zegana and Ezuri, Claw of Progress who are quite strong. Riku of Two Reflections was also mentioned above (you have to pay for the third reflection still, but probably worth it).

But sure, let's list a few: Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge, General Tazri (and Lieutenant Munda, Ambush Leader), Reaper King, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Sharuum the Hegemon, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Wort, the Raidmother, Godo, Bandit Warlord, . . . there are several.

Also decks like Ghave, Guru of Spores and Roon of the Hidden Realm and Brago, King Eternal will want to play with it even if it doesn't directly interact with them.
illuknisaa wrote:
Shabbaman wrote:
Which doesn't mean you can't make it work. If you consider Torpor Orb playable, Panharmonicon might be worth it in your opponents decks.
If I play Torpor Orb I hope my opponents play Panharmonicon because it pretty much means I win.
Right, the fact that Torpor Orb was already good enough to have a respected place in the format means that Panharmonicon will likely fit in just fine as well.
illuknisaa wrote:
The difference between 4 mana and 2 mana is huge.
While I agree that the differences between Panharmonicon and Strionic Resonator are significant, I want to point out that it's not a question of how much mana, but when you spend that mana. If you cast Resonator and activate it that turn to double an EtB effect, you are paying 4 mana. Resonator's advantage (in terms of mana) is that the cost can be spread out. Its disadvantages (again in terms of mana) are that you must have the mana available when the ability you want to copy triggers and you have to pay every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 6:30 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
can you name a single commander that can get direct value out of Panharmonicon?


Derevi, Ezuri, Brago, Gisa and Geralf, Higure/Ninja decks in general, Jalira, Jeleva, Muzzio, Nissa, Zegana, Reaper King, Riku, Roon, Selvala, Sharuum, Sidisi, Sidisi, Titania, Trostani, Clique, Venser, Verdeloth, Anafenza, Darien, Dong Zhou, Tazri, Ghost Council, Godo, Gondi, Iname, Karlov, Kiki Jiki, Linvala, Maga, Munda, All the Myojins, Obzedat, Olivia, Pia and Kiran, Pia, Purphoros, Ulrich, Wort...

I'm sure I missed a few but that's definitely a pretty short list... >.>

Not that it needs to have any direct combo with your command zone to be playable.

Honestly, saying this "costs too much" is like saying Doubling Season costs too much.

It's not an auto include by any stretch but definitely going to be good in a lot of decks and not just those that are "uber casual".


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 6:58 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
I got 'nathed, but I spent too long on the list not to post it. Alhammarret, Derevi, Dragonlord Atarka, General Tazri, Ghost Council of Orzhova, Gisa and Geralf, Godo, Gonti, Hazezon, Iname as One, Ishkanah, Jeleva, Kangee, Linvala, the Preserver, Maga, Munda, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Obzedat, Pia and Kiran, Pia Nalaar, Prime Speaker Zegana, Sharuum, Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Sun Ce, Titania, Tivadar of Thorn, Ulrich of the Krallenhorde, Vendilion Clique, Venser, Shaper Savant, Verdeloth, and Wort, the Raidmother all have ETB triggers.

Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit, Ezuri, Claw of Progress, Purphoros, Reaper King, Riku, Selvala, Heart of the Wild, and Trostani, Selesnya's Voice, all have triggers from other creatures ETB. Zirilan and Roon are both commanders that would love to get double triggers.


Last edited by JJackson on 2016-Sep-26 9:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 9:05 am 

Joined: 2015-Feb-10 3:10 am
Age: Drake
Why does it need to be the commander that generates the value?

There are other ways of using this:

Evolve triggers get to double up
Cathar's Crusade + Doubling Season and friends (also works with Evolve)
Warstorm Surge
Landfall shenanigans with Life and Limb or Living Lands or other permanent "all your lands are now creatures too" cards
Aura Shards
Minion Reflector
Ogre Battledriver
Angelic Chorus

It seems this could be rather versatile. Still probably far from an auto include as there is a bit of build up needed to make full use of it, but I think it might be more useful than some are giving it credit for.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 10:00 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
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I don't think you even really *need* to abuse it. Even if it flies under the radar for a few turns, it can provide similar incremental advantage like Mind's Eye. It's almost better not to really abuse it, let people ignore it for bigger threats because you aren't combo-ing out, and it will give a little here and there and pay for itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 2:03 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I am putting this into my Ghost Council of Orzhova deck, which is reanimator shenanigans since it synergizes with puppeteer clique, ashen rider, angel of despair, luminate primordial, fiend hunter, karmic guide, sepulchral primordial, sun titan, solemn, rune-scarred demon and wall of omens.

I haven't thought too deeply about my other decks, but there are a lot of etb's in my animar deck, the giant harmonica doesn't go into everything, but it goes into a lot of things. The comparison to strionic resonator is a poor one. The resonator is limited to one activation per turn, panharmonicon isn't. you may pay 4 mana up front, but to get any value out of the resonator you need to pay 4, and then keep paying 2 for each time you want to use it.

I'm pretty confident I will have more places to put this than the amount that I open.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 4:49 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Epsilon wrote:
Higure . . . All the Myojins
JJackson wrote:
Neither Myojins nor Alhammarret have any synergy with Panharmonicon. Higure, the Still Wind only has synergy in the way that Roon does, in that you're likely to be playing lots of EtB effects to profit a little extra from ninjutsu.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 7:18 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You are correct about the myojin and higure, but alhamaret is an ETB that would happen twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 10:49 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
JJackson wrote:


If your commander costs 3 or less then its' kinda hard to get that extra etb value when do nothing card costs 4. If your commander costs 4 you have to ask yourself "Do I want to play this do nothing card or my commander?" 11 times out of 10 I would play my commader.

Treamayne wrote:
I don't think you even really *need* to abuse it. Even if it flies under the radar for a few turns, it can provide similar incremental advantage like Mind's Eye. It's almost better not to really abuse it, let people ignore it for bigger threats because you aren't combo-ing out, and it will give a little here and there and pay for itself.


If you are going for value why not just play something that generates value on its' own without needing a 4 mana do nothing card? If you want get more value out of fleshbag marauder you can just play merciless executioner.

specter404 wrote:
You are correct about the myojin and higure, but alhamaret is an ETB that would happen twice.


No.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-26 11:17 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Alhammarret's ability is a replacement effect as it enters the battlefield, not a trigger when it enters the battlefield. No doubling.

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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-27 2:17 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
If your commander costs 3 or less then its' kinda hard to get that extra etb value when do nothing card costs 4. If your commander costs 4 you have to ask yourself "Do I want to play this do nothing card or my commander?" 11 times out of 10 I would play my commader.


Have you even looked at the lists people provided? You're just gonna Venser on 4 mana 11 times out of 10? Selvala or Anafenza are going to care if you drop this before them? A lot of generals that are 4 or less don't have actual ETB effects themselves, they have them when anything enters. A lot of generals that are 4 or less don't actually want or need to be cast on curve. How many decks are built where the commander is rarely if ever cast? How many 4 or less commanders are indestructible? 11 times out of 10 though. Sounds smart.

As others have said, what's in the command zone is largely irrelevant for this being playable. Cards certainly don't have to be played on curve in this format either.

Quote:
If you are going for value why not just play something that generates value on its' own without needing a 4 mana do nothing card?


Why not just play two planeswalkers instead of a doubling season? Flawed logic is flawed.

There's a thing called combo and another thing called synergy. Both are VERY powerful effects in this format. This format is about getting the most value out of your spells. If your card isn't a two for one, you probably should be replacing it. This turns all your cards into three for ones or better. Sure I could play two variants of Man o war... but it's a singleton format. It's a lot easier to just have my man o war trigger twice, bounce itself and something else and just chain cast it on a whim for 3 mana a pop. I'm pretty sure your two copies of man o war will not be as crippling as that.

This doesn't just copy ETB's on the card. It copies anything that triggers on ETB. Intruder Alarm gets to untap all your stuff twice. Riku gets to make two copies of your creature for six ETB triggers from a single spell. Purphoros and Impact Tremors start burning for twice as much. It's going to take a long time to realize the full potential of this card. Some of those scenarios may be win more, some will be not worth the "do nothing" card, many will still be perfectly great.


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 Post subject: Re: Panharmonicon - how useful is it, really?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-27 3:22 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
illuknisaa wrote:
If you are going for value why not just play something that generates value on its' own without needing a 4 mana do nothing card? If you want get more value out of fleshbag marauder you can just play merciless executioner.

Because that Merciless Executioner doesn't then get you even more value when you cast your Shriekmaw.


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