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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 7:45 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
4. Lack of Targeted removal

RaiRai wrote:
I was referring more along the lines of Damnation and Tainted Remedy

...
Damnation and Tainted Remedy don't target anything--they are static effects. And as Marit Lage has said, if you're looking for mass removal, Red has plenty. Red also has some cards to prevent players from gaining life.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 8:48 am 

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RaiRai wrote:
4. Lack of Targeted removal

RaiRai wrote:
I was referring more along the lines of Damnation and Tainted Remedy



You can have lots of targeted removal in Red/Green. Just look for cards with the word "target" on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 9:19 am 
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Ugh, what I am saying is that you have better advantages with Jund Werewolves over Gruul because the nature of Jund suite are naturally more suited for this tribe in particular as well as Eldrazi would

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 10:48 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
Ugh, what I am saying is that you have better advantages with Jund Werewolves over Gruul because the nature of Jund suite are naturally more suited for this tribe in particular as well as Eldrazi would

That may be what you're trying to do, but you haven't provided a good argument in your most recent point-by-point. We're trying to show you why.

    1. [They're] Blue's whipping boys and suffer from counterspells: every other color is Blue's whipping boy when it comes to counter spells; however, Gruul is actually the color combination with the most tools to sidestep this issue.

    2. Their Flip mechanic that requires no one to play a spell last turn and if someone plays more than X spells, they flip back: while this is true in terms of directly rephrasing their transform ability, you haven't shown how Black is going to prevent this. (hint: discard effects, which makes you enemy no. 1 after the land destruction guy)

    3. Hard to find a commander that synergizes well with them in some cases depending on how a deck is built: most werewolf decks are built for aggro, and Xenagos, God of Revels is pretty good at aggro.

    4. Lack of Targeted removal: just read the last few posts and we've shown why this is absolutely incorrect.

If you argued werewolves are better in Jund due to the access to unspecific tutors, then you're have a small argument there.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 2:51 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
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Personally, I've never been interested in werewolves because of their flip mechanic alone. But as for the Jund VS Gruul, I do have a couple insights.

With Jund, the good part is that there's a whole extra color that you have to work with. The bad part is that there's a whole extra color you have to work with. The selection of commanders with Jund is much less diverse. The only reason I would pick Jund over Gruul for werewolves is the extra getting stuff back from the graveyard straight into play.

As for a tribal, I only have personal experience with two: Scarecrows and Slivers. My Sliver deck is in a deck box gathering dust, so I'm not gonna talk about that. Scarecrows on the other hand are extremely weak and my Reaper King deck is almost entirely dependent on it's commander for making any kind of play. Even then, it's a passive-aggressive style of play. With werewolves, the key mechanic is that the more players there are, the less control you have over them.

Which is why I would suggest Gruul, because of their flip mechanic, but not with the same reasoning a lot of people might suggest. Werewolves have less reliability, and the one time I saw them used, they got run over because there was no back up plan (He didn't even have Moonmist), and I didn't feel like dragging him along for the ride. With tribals, I've found the key to the deck is the commander, because there's already a theme.

The first and probably best choice would be Borborygmos, because he buffs the werewolves and already has trample. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe counters stay on cards when they flip. The more defensive option would probably be Xenagos, because he's indestructible and buffs a creature each turn. He only buffs one, so without trample, it would be a waste in my combat-oriented meta.

Personally, for a werewolf deck, I would pick Dragonlord Atarka. An 8/8 flying trample dragon has a huge board presence. That can offset the werewolves when they're in their human forms, and my play group is combat oriented, so werewolves would probably get run over without a lot of support. A weaker effect-dependent legendary doesn't have nearly as much of a presence as one that can three shot people with commander damage. If he ends up blocking more then attacking, it's just buying more time to find an Overrun or Fangren Pathcutter.

I just don't feel werewolves can hold their ground in commander without a lot of support. I'll admit I'm biased against them, because I've only seen them get run over, but I'll still do what I can to help with ideas. The commander of a tribal is probably the most important part of the deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 4:55 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-07 11:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:

My perception of werewolves as a tribe:

Gruul werewolf
Strengths
1. They are vastly stronger than most creatures with the Human Subtype and are flippable
2. Their native Gruul suite is highly aggressive and are capable of dealing high impact damage with major buffs.
3. Their tribe is super cheap to build with
4. They flip into something nastier

Weakness
1. Their Blue's whipping boys and suffer from counterspells
2. Their Flip mechanic that requires no one to play a spell last turn and if someone plays more than X spells, they flip back
3. Hard to find a commander that synergizes well with them in some cases depending on how a deck is built
4. Lack of Targeted removal


Doing Jund werewolves as mentioned eliminates most of their weaknesses, and makes them ten times scarier as a tribe, especially in regards to them gaining the ability to become unblockable.


I think this is the problem we are running into.

1. They are vastly stronger than most creatures with the Human Subtype and are flippable

Why is comparing them to other "creatures with the human subtype" relevant (also what does this mean?). I would suggest this is completely untrue as human is a much stronger more synergistic tribe for commander. So how are they stronger?

Flippable as a strength? Why is this a good thing?


2. Their native Gruul suite is highly aggressive and are capable of dealing high impact damage with major buffs.

Completely irrelevant when comparing them to other tribes. beasts, warriors, humans, goblins and many more could all be played G/R. The question is why werewolves. If the answer is "we want a werewolves vs vampires vs zombies etc night", then I can work with that.

3. Their tribe is super cheap to build with

Monetary cost or mana cost. I agree some of their best cards are great for their low mana cost. Which is why they are actually good in 60 card magic.

4. They flip into something nastier

They don't really. They flip into something that still gets outclassed by most other tribes out there.

Weakness
1. Their Blue's whipping boys and suffer from counterspells

Everything gets countered. What makes werewolves particularly weak to blue is that blue likes to cast multiple spells per turn. Note: the same player needs to cast 2 spells not multiple players casting 1.

2. Their Flip mechanic that requires no one to play a spell last turn and if someone plays more than X spells, they flip back

Why is this a weakness?

3. Hard to find a commander that synergizes well with them in some cases depending on how a deck is built

Very little truth to this one. I've seen 3-4 valid suggestions for werewolf commanders.

4. Lack of Targeted removal

Still not true.


My take on werewolves:

Strengths
1) cheap mana cost for possibly efficient creatures.
2) Synergy with wolves, both in play and flavor.
3) Fun if you like flipping and full of flavor.

Weaknesses
1) werewolf creatures are weak and quickly outclassed.
2) They don't come out in numbers (very few tokens).
3) Aggro is weak in commander in general.
4) Low cost quickly puts werewolves in top deck mode.
5) Only saw print in 2 blocks, so not many cards to pick from.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-05 12:54 pm 
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Segrus wrote:
RaiRai wrote:
Ugh, what I am saying is that you have better advantages with Jund Werewolves over Gruul because the nature of Jund suite are naturally more suited for this tribe in particular as well as Eldrazi would

That may be what you're trying to do, but you haven't provided a good argument in your most recent point-by-point. We're trying to show you why.

    1. [They're] Blue's whipping boys and suffer from counterspells: every other color is Blue's whipping boy when it comes to counter spells; however, Gruul is actually the color combination with the most tools to sidestep this issue.

    2. Their Flip mechanic that requires no one to play a spell last turn and if someone plays more than X spells, they flip back: while this is true in terms of directly rephrasing their transform ability, you haven't shown how Black is going to prevent this. (hint: discard effects, which makes you enemy no. 1 after the land destruction guy)

    3. Hard to find a commander that synergizes well with them in some cases depending on how a deck is built: most werewolf decks are built for aggro, and Xenagos, God of Revels is pretty good at aggro.

    4. Lack of Targeted removal: just read the last few posts and we've shown why this is absolutely incorrect.

If you argued werewolves are better in Jund due to the access to unspecific tutors, then you're have a small argument there.


Well tutors are nice but you also gain access to a number of Buffs for your own creatures and debuffs for your opponent such as Curse of Death's Hold, outbreak and Cower in Fear. It also gives the opportunity to play Stax and a side of Black Control, with Cards like Destructive Flow, (technically Jund), and Dictate of Erebos. Overall you are granted more synergy and flexibility in the Jund Suite, especially if you wish to completely disrupt your opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-05 2:33 pm 

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Random -1/-1s will hose... Tokens? Assuming no Anthems or lords? That's not an effect that will affect play.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-05 4:55 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Random -1/-1s will hose... Tokens? Assuming no Anthems or lords? That's not an effect that will affect play.


I was giving an example of such Debuffs, hell if I wanted to be more specific I'd suggest Leyline of the Void to disrupt graveyards and what not, or Darkest Hour to turn all your werewolves Black, or playing Bereavement. Point is that Jund is that, Jund strategically speaking, is better bet against most other decks that are competitively oriented, because the introduction of Black will toss a monkey wrench into their libraries.

Jelik wrote:

My take on werewolves:

Strengths
1) cheap mana cost for possibly efficient creatures.
2) Synergy with wolves, both in play and flavor.
3) Fun if you like flipping and full of flavor.

Weaknesses
1) werewolf creatures are weak and quickly outclassed.
2) They don't come out in numbers (very few tokens).
3) Aggro is weak in commander in general.
4) Low cost quickly puts werewolves in top deck mode.
5) Only saw print in 2 blocks, so not many cards to pick from.


Granted, this is why I recommend for EDH at least to consider Jund as favorable suite for werewolves to be in because in my old Vegas Meta, Werewolves always got punched in the sensitive bits for EDH and Standard Play. Now my reasoning for suggesting Jund is because during a game of Two Headed Giant Draft where I drafted up a makeshift Grixis vampire Control Deck while my teammate did werewolf tribal aggro in Gruul suite. I made extensive use of Black spells in assisting him with Great success and screwing over any blue players, by using Grotesque Mutation to boost his creatures, and Dead Weight 'ing our opponents' creatures as well as shutting them down via Bolts.

As far as that's concerned in EDH, its not that hard to take advantage of Tribal synergy especially in green with Card's Such as Patriarch's Bidding and Descendant's Path and there're actually probably at least 40 werewolf creatures in total so you have a decent selection. Black is there to compensate for their weakness to ensure when they hit, they hit like a truck without a legit license plate smuggling illegals across the US Border, you won't expect it coming. It also alters the aggro strategy to lean more towards disruption of an opponent's strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 3:47 am 
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Yes, there are 40 werewolves, but how many are actually worth playing? 20? That's pretty low density for a "tribal" deck. Black doesn't shore up the weakness of werewolves any more than any additional color would. Sure, you can Patriarch's Bidding them back into play, but they'll come back as humans and you'll be right back where you started. They lack the synergy and density of the more played tribes, and therein lies the real problem, a dearth of good, synergistic creatures that share a type that are NOT at the mercy of your opponents just doing what they would do normally: playing spells. A multiplayer, singleton environment is not the place where werewolves shine. Hell, even Legacy Jund has given up on Huntmaster of the Fells, arguably the best werewolf there is.

tl;dr: tribes need synergy to be good. Werewolves lack synergy AND are too dependent on your opponents to be good, no matter what colors you add.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 7:44 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
Well tutors are nice but you also gain access to a number of Buffs for your own creatures and debuffs for your opponent such as Curse of Death's Hold, outbreak and Cower in Fear. It also gives the opportunity to play Stax and a side of Black Control, with Cards like Destructive Flow, (technically Jund), and Dictate of Erebos.

RaiRai wrote:
I was giving an example of such Debuffs, hell if I wanted to be more specific I'd suggest Leyline of the Void to disrupt graveyards and what not, or Darkest Hour to turn all your werewolves Black, or playing Bereavement.

You're comparing weak debuff effects to vastly superior buff effects, which Green is the master of for larger groups of creatures. You don't need Black at all when you have Beastmaster Ascension, Overwhelming Stampede, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

RaiRai wrote:
Point is that Jund is that, Jund strategically speaking, is better bet against most other decks that are competitively oriented, because the introduction of Black will toss a monkey wrench into their libraries.

RaiRai wrote:
Overall you are granted more synergy and flexibility in the Jund Suite, especially if you wish to completely disrupt your opponent.

No, you haven't proven anything at all. Disrupting your opponent doesn't require Black, because as has been stated, Red and Green have plenty of destruction effects capable of preventing other players from completing their combo. Black is one of the more powerful colors for EDH because of tutoring (which sidesteps the problem of having ~60 non-repeating cards in a 100-card deck) and arguably the second best card draw (behind Blue, and also helps mitigate the problem of a large, singleton deck).

Your anecdotal evidence of a (or even several) two-headed EDH games is highly suspect as the cards you've mentioned using would never be seen in a truly competitive deck (to be clear, Grotesque Mutation and Dead Weight). I'm certain you don't have any complete data to remotely suggest which is the superior build between Jund and Gruul Werewolves.

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-07 6:35 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-14 4:05 am
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Hi

I am surprised no one suggested Xenago, god of revels as a Gruul Commander for werewolves, even in human form they get haste and hit for double, hmmmmmmmmmm.

Jund really needs better commander choices, WOTC needs to make a Jund werewolf. If I was making a Jund werewolf deck I would incorporate Geier reach bandit and other ways to get instant flip but also include the eldrazi wolves for manual flips. All three colours play well with madness and delirium but those mechanics in EDH I am unsure of being really great in the format although these mechanics mixed really well with werewolves in my limited release day, won all the battles due to the synergies.

Black with R/G mostly adds more tutor, power, card drawing, mana, mill, sac effects, graveyard recursion, life loss/gain, some evasion and one counter (Dash hopes, hehehe). I could see a Jund Werewolf deck perhaps self milling then play a graveyard revival spell that forces players to replace their creatures with the creatures in their graveyards (the name of this card eludes me).

As much as I love Jund ATM I would say its easier make a werewolf deck with Gruul, Temur sooner then Jund :cry: although I think with a little thought Jund werewolf EDH could be really good but the lack of lots of werewolf creatures (81 according to WOTC search and I am not sure if the search is counting the flip side as well) to choose from severely dampens the decks possibilities say compared to a Orzhov cleric (320) tribal or a Boros soldier tribal (572) or a Azorius deck with spirits (436), a mono red goblin deck (303) or even simply human (1872) of course also you could add wolves to the deck and that has 126 including werewolves.

To me this discussion really revolves around why hasn't WOTC made any black wolves/werewolves as Jund shard is a perfect fit for them and would promote some more interesting synergies for this tribe.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-07 8:14 am 
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Commando calrissian wrote:
Hi

I am surprised no one suggested Xenago, god of revels as a Gruul Commander for werewolves, even in human form they get haste and hit for double, hmmmmmmmmmm.

Jund really needs better commander choices, WOTC needs to make a Jund werewolf. If I was making a Jund werewolf deck I would incorporate Geier reach bandit and other ways to get instant flip but also include the eldrazi wolves for manual flips. All three colours play well with madness and delirium but those mechanics in EDH I am unsure of being really great in the format although these mechanics mixed really well with werewolves in my limited release day, won all the battles due to the synergies.

Black with R/G mostly adds more tutor, power, card drawing, mana, mill, sac effects, graveyard recursion, life loss/gain, some evasion and one counter (Dash hopes, hehehe). I could see a Jund Werewolf deck perhaps self milling then play a graveyard revival spell that forces players to replace their creatures with the creatures in their graveyards (the name of this card eludes me).

As much as I love Jund ATM I would say its easier make a werewolf deck with Gruul, Temur sooner then Jund :cry: although I think with a little thought Jund werewolf EDH could be really good but the lack of lots of werewolf creatures (81 according to WOTC search and I am not sure if the search is counting the flip side as well) to choose from severely dampens the decks possibilities say compared to a Orzhov cleric (320) tribal or a Boros soldier tribal (572) or a Azorius deck with spirits (436), a mono red goblin deck (303) or even simply human (1872) of course also you could add wolves to the deck and that has 126 including werewolves.

To me this discussion really revolves around why hasn't WOTC made any black wolves/werewolves as Jund shard is a perfect fit for them and would promote some more interesting synergies for this tribe.

cheers


Historically they have made two Black werewolves, Lesser werewolf and Greater werewolf, which in all Honesty would be interesting if they explicitly pursued various tribes in Three color, like Jund Werewolves, Grixis Vampires, Bant Merfolk, Sultai or Azbhan Elves and etc

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 Post subject: Re: Deckbuilding: Gruul Werewolves VS Jund Werewolves
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-07 12:41 pm 
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Having three Werewolf decks online, the things I've found are...

Werewolf Tribal EDH's primary flaws:

1) Opponent influencing transformations
2) lack of flying defense/evasion offense
3) consistant card draw

These are all better handled with Blue (Temur) than Black. Mostly due to number 1. You would have to go very heavy on discard (making tribal secondary) to keep hands empty enough to limit the "2 spells / turn" events Or you could run things like Arcane laboratory (5 syllable pronunciation req'd). White as the third color could probably handle Number 1 better, since it has more of those effects, but blue can easily fill 2 and 3 as well (where white can't).

Also, regarding tribal diversity, don't forget that the deck wants (and needs IMO) to be wolf and werewolf. You need Immerwolf, Pyreheart wolf etc. and most non-creature support already says "wolf and werewolf" (e.g.Moonlight hunt} White gets more wolves (though you likely don't want too many) but there are quite a few Wolf token makers and ways of (ab)using them.

I guess my point is <requisite IMO clause> Naya and Temur will both work better than Jund in the long run. Unless you are trying to make a werewolf combo deck and need the tutoring to get the pieces out. But then it's a combo deck with werewolves, not a wolf/werewolf tribal deck.

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