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 Post subject: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-09 7:43 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-01 6:02 am
Age: Drake
Location: South Carolina
So I have this Braids, Conjurer Adept deck. It's mostly clones and control magic-style effects. The idea was that I would let my opponents put out cool things and I would copy/borrow them, but it seems to just be grindy and unfun, maybe because it's got islands in it and my old playgroup would play very cautiously around it, which made games much longer than they should have been, despite only playing 3 counterspells in the deck (Arcane Denial, Vex and Turn Aside), no infinite combos and no extra turns.

I've since moved to a new location and joined a new EDH group at my LGS. The people are fun but their playstyle is a little rough- Mass Land Destruction and locking other players out seems to be okay with them, which I can't get behind but just sort of grin and bear.

Aaanyhoo, after getting Cataclysmed last week and watching the guy who cast it durdle around with Reya Dawnbringer for way too many turns and still lose while two other players struggled to do anything relevant for the rest of the game, I wondered if I could use the core idea of my Braids deck to help put people who got locked out back into the game, because I would rather us all play as much Magic as possible.

I know Kingmaker is a style, but I don't quite know how to build it... It might not be that good in monoblue. I know a lot of it would rely on me policing myself, but I figure that things that let all the players draw cards and/or possibly cheat things out(sadly I don't really want to buy Show and Tell but I've got a Gate to the Aether) might be a good place to start. Maybe some Stifle-like effects for infinite shenanigans. As I write this, I'm wondering if I would even really want the deck to win, at least not overtly, but it still needs some teeth so it doesn't get run over.


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-09 12:58 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Well, Group Hug and Kingmaker are not quite the same deck. Most would say Kingmaker is a sub-type of Group Hug (like any MtG topic you will get 5 different answers from 5 different people) but, to me, the primary difference is that "Group Hug" is more about effects that are equal for everyone (on the surface). Braids is a Group Hug Card. "Kingmaker" is more of a target opponent gets something good (while you usually get equal or better). Phelddagrif and Intellectual Offering are Kingmaker cards. Kingmaker would generally be a better choice if you are wanting to help the weakest at the table get back in the game. Hug would generally help the whole table recover from <whatever>. You will probably have to better define what end state you are going to work towards (helping the underdogs against the "biggest threat"tm or equal opportunity Pandora's box o' goodness (knowing you plane to ruin, copy, steal the goodness).

Some items currently in or from previous versions of my Nin Wizard Tribal and Karona Bitter Hug (Hug with as much bad for everyone as it has good for everyone) decks that you may find interesting:

Howling Mine
Font of Mythos - Uncle of Howling mine
Otherworld Atlas - Howling Mine on Demand
Horn of Greed - O.G. Landfall
Well of Knowledge - Draw Tax
Crown of Doom - Gives them something else to waste mana on, besides me
Jangling Automaton - Strategic untapping of an opponent to offset another
Mana Web - if they thought combat math was hard...

Teferi's Veil - so those EOT steals don't actually give back at end of turn (and in case I don't want to share Karona)
Noble Benefactor - Have free stuff
Sailmonger - Flying Wars
Wheel and Deal - Selective 7 card reset
Quicksilver Gargantuan - Have a free creature, so I can have the same thing but bigger
Kami of the Crescent Moon - Howling mine on legs
Amoeboid Changeling - add/remove tribal bonuses
Dakra Mystic - Mill or Draw, both can be useful
Dictate of Kruphix - Howling Mine, Enchantment Edition
Well of Ideas - Howling Mine, Enchantment Edition redux
Time Reversal - All purpose hand/graveyard reset
Curse of Echoes - Cause every table has an over-ramper
Zur's Weirding - Evil

* Also running Underworld Dreams, Spiteful Visions and Sudden Impact effects in Bitter Hug

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-09 1:37 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-01 6:02 am
Age: Drake
Location: South Carolina
Thanks for clearing that up.

I think I'd rather play Kingmaker- I was actually mulling over if I should just play Phelddagriff, because I ran out of blue effects that were not strictly along the lines of "well, it's good if I target myself but this could conceivably help another player, or things that helped other players as a drawback, like indentured djinn

This is the list of buckets I had so far. I thought of rites of flourishing and thought about going blue/green, then I started wondering if I should just be donating hippos to the cause:

Here, underdog, do something:
Intellectual Offering
Djinn of Infinite Deceits
Dulcet Sirens
Hunted Phantasm
Benthic Explorers
Beacon of Tomorrows
Deep Analysis
Metamorphose
Assault Suit
Domineering Will
Fold into Æther
polymorph
acorn catapult(seems decent with polymorph and company)
Oona's Grace
Spectral Searchlight
blue sun’s zenith
Blessed Reincarnation

Green:
Reincarnation
yavimaya Dryad
Rancor
Hunted Troll
Vow of Wildness


Okay, everybody do something (mostly draw cards, but hey):
Tempt with Reflections
Jace Beleren
Noble Benefactor
Vision Skeins
Words of Wisdom
Fascination
Indentured Djinn
Kami of the Crescent Moon
Howling Mine
Gate to the Æther

Green:
Rites of Flourishing
Hunted Wumpus
Iwamori of the open Fist
collective voyage
New frontiers
Tempting Wurm (this is probably bad, though)

Sorry, but not really:
Squelch
Stifle
Swan Song
Trickbind
Vex
Reality Ripple
Arcane Denial
Dream Fracture
Illusionist's Gambit
Perplexing Chimera


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-09 9:24 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Fecundity and Veteran Explorer are often seen in these decks when G is available.

Nin is a good UR option if you want to look at other UX options.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-10 12:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-01 6:02 am
Age: Drake
Location: South Carolina
Treamayne wrote:
Fecundity and Veteran Explorer are often seen in these decks when G is available.

Nin is a good UR option if you want to look at other UX options.

I forgot about Veteran; I think all my copies are tied up in other decks. But Nin? Hmm. hadn't thought of that at all. Maybe I should just do zedruu... I'm definitely leaning towards blue-something at least, if not monoblue.


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-10 1:00 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
If your table is playing rough, there isn't anything quite like using their own cards against them. Ray of Command to steal somebody's game-warping monster is pretty stellar. Nice 'geddon Avacyn, Angel of Hope player. Reins of Power is a classic, too. Domineering Will can turn a combat with the top dog attacking the weakest player into a blowout for both the (currently) 1st and 2nd place people.

If they're doing MLD and such, I think you'll likely need to up your counterspells if you want to stay monoblue. If you want to keep the counters from really stinging, I like Dream Fracture. Split Decision is a good way to channel the vox populi. If you want to make people who are winning feel bad for trying to lock it up with Cataclysm, try Dismal Failure. It sends a message.


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-10 11:11 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I played my old Zedruu deck as a help the weakest player become viable deck. The main problem I found with zedruu is that I think gaining extra cards and life puts a big target on herself (would prefer not to have those effects honestly). So you have to be careful how you navigate her.

I also have played Karona as basically the same thing since you can play her right after a board wipe and the table can all swing out and kill the threat. Usually makes for some quick games too.

Both decks worked by trying to redistrube the good cards taht other players had so cards like puca's mischief, preacher, gilded drake, etc.

Some of my favorite help the weakest player cards are:

Of course having at least 5 hard counters and like 10 mass removal spells in the deck always helps keep the board from getting out of hand too.

I don't like mass incremental draw like howling mine because I feel it pulls the player that is ahead even further ahead.

_________________
Kuro, Pitlord (Life gain)
Derevi (Manlands)
Marchesa (Modular)
Retired:
Krenko, Mob Boss (Goblins)
Zedruu the Christmas Goat (group hug)
Ramses Overdark (Assassin Deck)


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-10 12:39 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Windfall effects can also be a good "catch the leader" category to include as well.

Teferi's Puzzle Box can help landscrew players get some resources to the table (but also make some playgroups very bitter, for some reason). It also helps blue bounce act as pseudo removal and can get very funny (or ugly, depending on the table) when combined with Storm Cauldron.

Bruticus wrote:
I don't like mass incremental draw like howling mine because I feel it pulls the player that is ahead even further ahead.


It can do that (which is why many dislike Hug decks). That's why my Karona version uses so many draw penalizing cards as well (similar to many current Nekusar decks, except my first version of the Bitter Hug was about 4 years before Nekusar was printed).

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Hug it out, or "Everybody gets to play Magic"
AgePosted: 2016-Mar-16 5:17 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-01 6:02 am
Age: Drake
Location: South Carolina
I've been mulling over the suggestions- I really like the advocates and they're making me feel more like this deck should be Bant, though I still like the idea of monoblue that isn't exactly control.

My first impulse was to play a lot of clones and stealing effects, but that's what my current iteration of Braids already is- everyone drops ridiculous things and assuming she survives to my upkeep, I get a free clone. It might play better in this new group (and I might just try it this week for the hell of it), though I still have stormtide leviathan and inkwell leviathan as finishers in case someone is playing weird combo stuff I can't get a benefit from. Definitely want to look into Split Decision and Dismal Failure.

At this point I'm really just wrestling with the idea of a deck that's not necessarily out to win but can still reasonably deal with threats. It's an odd headspace to be in as opposed to most of the other decks I've made where I would pick a path or two to victory and just search for cards that did that particular thing(s).

Thanks for all your help so far! When I make some decisions I will be sure to report back.


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