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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-16 3:31 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Reliquary Tower is one of the most disagreed upon cards in EDH.

I am firmly in the camp that is basically unplayable garbage because if you can't win with 7 cards of your choice in your hand, you probably can't win.

But A LOT of people love it.


So I have 27.5 decks, 3 of the have it. I currently own more than a dozen. It is a card I consider, but unless you are mono brown you can only have so many utility lands and this is one that often gets cut.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-16 5:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
As people get better at the game (or at least more experienced) they generally tend to realize it's generally unnecessary. It's not a bad card but it's just not needed in the vast majority of decks. If you have the option of a land that always does something and one that generally doesn't... It should be a no brainer. Tower is the latter in most decks.

You can laugh all you want but you're the one first picking two generally unplayable lands without regard to the actual deck they're going into...


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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-16 11:35 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
...Mindmoil (among other wheel effects like Winds of Change)...

These don't get you over 7 cards. I mean, you could Winds of Change into a card draw spell, but those cards don't fill your hand by themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-17 12:00 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
Treamayne wrote:
...Mindmoil (among other wheel effects like Winds of Change)...

These don't get you over 7 cards. I mean, you could Winds of Change into a card draw spell, but those cards don't fill your hand by themselves.


They aren't about getting over 7, they are for keeping a grip of 8-10 and using them to sift through the deck. They are some of the reasons for wanting 7+, not getting there.

Game Example (about a year ago): WoG was cast while I had Twilight Shepherd in play (cast to stop another player's PoK into Vorinclex), returning four angels to my hand and putting me at 9 cards. Having Mindmoil and the Tower, I recovered a bit faster since I was able to pull the best creatures and disruption/cantrips. I wouldn't say Reliquary Tower was instrumental, but I also can't discount the advantage of seeing an extra 2-3 cards each cycle. Had I been forced to discard down to 7 (only being able to cast 1 angel per turn) I don't think I could have recovered nearly as well.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-17 12:14 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Epsilon wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
Alot of decks might have stuff like Swords of X & Y, Mind's eye, staff of nin is my personal favourite, phyrexian arena etc, all these cards for the low low cost of one land slot can be made alot better. I personally throw a reliquary tower in almost every deck tbh


The only card there that will ever keep you above seven cards is the Mind's Eye at significant tempo loss. The others will just ensure land drops and keep your hand full unless you're doing nothing. If you're doing nothing, then get rid of the trash in your hand. Holding 8 do nothing cards does not put you in a better situation than holding 7 do nothing cards.

Unless you can average 3+ cards drawn a turn cycle, you will not have greater than 7 cards in hand at any point unless you're mana screwed or otherwise locked down by another player. Even then, discarding your weakest card is not overly relevant. Unless you can easily get to the 10+ cards in hand range, you have 0 reason to have no max hand size.

Again, if you're not in blue or to a lesser extent green, it's highly unlikely that you'll want or need no max hand size. Black generally wants to play out of the yard and the other colors can't sustain that level of card draw consistently without off color sources. (tokens + skull clamp, etc)

The only other time I would consider it is if I was playing the new colorless cards and needed colorless sources. It has a low opportunity cost to include but there are just so many good nonbasics that it's just not worth the slot.

No max hand size is a grossly overrated effect. I shake my head every time someone in my meta includes a Spellbook in a deck. The land is far and away superior to Spellbook or other sources of the effect but it's still largely unnecessary in the majority of decks.


Well huge spells like blue sun, overwhelming forces, decree of pain, greater good, Soul's Majesty not to mention when somebody bounces your field with cyclonic rift, or forcefeeds everyone cards with group hug, plus the decks i run with equipment or aura combat draw i always run with double strikers. Tempo loss in a 6 way EDH game due to mind's eye is almost not even a thing. If you can use all your mana every turn your meta is either completely solved or cut throat so you have to be super efficient, or all your stuff is low mana. Plenty of turns leave at least a few mana open for the eye. Must be a different meta thing, i know for a fact i have often really wanted to draw the tower to keep a big grip of cards. A big hand doesn't mean victory, this is a format of answers and crazy plays afterall. Being able to keep the big hand over time, might mean the difference in the turns to come. For one land slot!

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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-17 1:37 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
maiden77 wrote:
Being able to keep the big hand over time, might mean the difference in the turns to come.

Like when you eat a big Sudden Impact? :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: How do you build your manabase?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-17 3:22 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
JJackson wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
Being able to keep the big hand over time, might mean the difference in the turns to come.

Like when you eat a big Sudden Impact? :twisted:


why not, that's what its for, killing greedy blue and green mages! :mrgreen: The risk of being hit by such cards is less than the risk of having to discard a tonne for cost of one land slot imo

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