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 Post subject: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-08 11:56 am 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-12 10:51 am
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So I was looking through some Darien soldier tribal decklists and got a bit inspired to maybe make my own twist on it. Soldiers are a tribe that isn't that exciting flavor-wise, but maybe it could be? I got the idea that maybe the soldiers could use their titular ranks and function with them in mind, that lower ranking soldiers would need the higher-ups, and higher ranking soldiers would be more prioritized in the deck. I looked through all the soldiers and to my excitement a lot of them have titles with military rankings in them, so I compiled a list of the most playable/flavorful ones, with what rank they would have in the deck:

Field Marshal (Rank 8 ):
Field Marshal (duh :lol: )

General (Rank 7):
General Jarkeld

Brigadier (Rank 6):
Aven Brigadier

Commander (Rank 5):
Goldnight Commander
Benalish Commander
Commander Eesha

Captain (Rank 4):
Precinct Captain
Preeminent Captain
Knight-Captain of Eos
Captain of the Watch

Liutenant & Officer (Rank 3):
Icatian Lieutenant
Consul's Lieutenant
Lieutenant Kirtar
Enlistment Officer

Tactician (Rank 2) (this is not really an actual rank, but since there are three tacticians...):
Cenn's Tactician
Ampryn Tactician
Odric, Master Tactician

Private (Rank 1) (here is all the soldiers without ranks, maybe some of them would fit better with a higher rank?):
Frontline Strategist, Soldier of the Pantheon, Mentor of the Meek, Bastion Protector, Court Street Denizen, Intrepid Hero, Ranger of Eos, Stonehorn Dignitary, Stormfront Riders, Kjeldoran Royal Guard, Catapult Master, Steam Catapult, Gempalm Avenger, Soldier tokens


I got the idea that I would play with an 'emblem' of sorts, which would dictate the flavor rules of the deck. This is what I've come up with for now:

Darien's Emblem
If any number of soldiers would attack or block, one higher ranking creature must also participate in the attack or block if possible.

Meaning if Icatian Lieutenant and Consul's Lieutenant would attack, someone like Knight-Captain of Eos would need lead them into battle (I probably need to word it differently so that the higher ranking creature who is also participating is exempt from the rule).

So I guess what I'm looking for is input on the deck idea, how the emblem could be worded and what rules it could have in order to enforce the military ranking theme, and what cards would fit well into the theme (Fanatical Devotion would fit well, as well as Sigil of Distinction which then would be prioritized to equip the highest ranking creature :P).

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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-08 1:03 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Cool idea!
Sherlock wrote:
Darien's Emblem
If any number of soldiers would attack or block, one higher ranking creature must also participate in the attack or block if possible.

Meaning if Icatian Lieutenant and Consul's Lieutenant would attack, someone like Knight-Captain of Eos would need lead them into battle (I probably need to word it differently so that the higher ranking creature who is also participating is exempt from the rule).

So I guess what I'm looking for is input on the deck idea, how the emblem could be worded

I'd suggest something like

"Two or more soldiers may not attack unless a soldier of higher rank is also attacking."

It means that (using your example) Icatian Lieutentant and Consul's Lieutenant couldn't attack unless a Captain attacked with them, but the Captain could attack because he's only one guy. It also means if you have two soldiers of different ranks, they still need a leader (say, Soldier of the Pantheon and Cenn's Tactician - they'd still need a Lieutenant or higher to attack with them).

Downside to this is one guy can always attack by himself; you could add "Soldiers may not attack alone" to the above, or just leave it.

Edit: And of course this doesn't work either as it just works itself up the chain until you get to the Field Marshal, who can never attack because no one is commanding him. Hmmmmm.

Try: "You may not declare Soldiers as attackers unless a Soldier of higher rank is also attacking. This does not apply to the highest ranking soldier you control."

To be honest, it sounds like a hell of a drawback.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-08 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As someone who served, most military operations are ran primarily by the enlisted i.e. Sargeant. The officers LT. or Capt. Generally sign off on larger engagements but having 1-2 soldiers attack someone on a patrol isn't often that big a deal.

Now if you are flavoring it as each attack is one battle in a much larger war... then you would weigh the attacks differently I guess. I served in the navy, but I know some people in the forums served in different branches. These days every one knows someone who has served.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-08 4:35 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Generally speaking, The Officers send the Enlisted into harm's way (except the Air Force where the enlisted service the Fighters to send the officers out to fight; but crew aircraft are always a combination of enlisted and commissioned). Of course there are all kinds of exceptions to this rule, and military operations today seem very different from the days of WW I and II or earlier.

That said, as a simplified example, I would suggest something like:

"Soldiers may not attack or block unless at least one Officer is on the battlefield"

Sometimes the Lieutenant is on the Patrol, sometimes (s)he just orders the Sergeant and team to patrol. So, the emblem wouldn't dictate the attack of the officers (they only obey higher officers and the whims of the "Good Idea Fairy") but it does necessitate that an officer is present to give the Soldiers their marching orders.

Also, nameless Soldier Tokens would likely be the first rank, and named soldiers (cards) the NCOs.

Other thoughts:
Are you set on mono-white?

Any plans for a special operations teams? (Nav Squad Commandos)

If you are using Darien, King of Kjeldor then you likely want to follow a more Medieval hierarchy:
Infantry (Soldiers), Ranged (Archers, Siege), Light Cavalry (mounted, unarmored soldiery with lances, javelins, bows/crossbow), Heavy Cavalry (Knights), Command (Kings, Generals, Marshals).

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-09 10:39 am 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-12 10:51 am
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
Cool idea!


Thanks! :D

Viperion wrote:
"Two or more soldiers may not attack unless a soldier of higher rank is also attacking."


Doesn't this work? The one soldier joining the team will not apply to the rule, since it's only one. I guess it would be ok for soldiers to go out alone, we'll call that a reconnaissance operation :P

Viperion wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like a hell of a drawback.


It would be a drawback, but I'm not sure it would be that severe. It would be great if it made the theme relevant and I was protecting the Field Marshal at the expense of the lower ranking troops.

Inkeyes22 wrote:
Now if you are flavoring it as each attack is one battle in a much larger war... then you would weigh the attacks differently I guess. I served in the navy, but I know some people in the forums served in different branches. These days every one knows someone who has served.


Thanks for your input. Yeah, I'm kind of flavoring it as that each creature isn't a singular soldier, but an unit, and when they're attacking another player, they're not just rushing into the battlefield, they need to set up a forward base, go on a campaign and all that stuff.

Treamayne wrote:
"Soldiers may not attack or block unless at least one Officer is on the battlefield"


This is a good idea, but would require additional rules in order to have any real effect on the deck. Just having one Officer out to make everything work as normal would be pretty easy to pull off and would not make the rankings of the soldiers matter.

Treamayne wrote:
Sometimes the Lieutenant is on the Patrol, sometimes (s)he just orders the Sergeant and team to patrol. So, the emblem wouldn't dictate the attack of the officers (they only obey higher officers and the whims of the "Good Idea Fairy") but it does necessitate that an officer is present to give the Soldiers their marching orders.


I wanted to enforce this stronger, but I think it could work out depending on the scenario. If I only have a bunch of Privates out and one Captain available, then obviously that Captain would need to lead the offensive. But if the whole chain of command is there, only one lower ranking official would need to participate while the rest could sit at the base, sip their tea and engage in Catch 22-esque bantering. Maybe I should add some rule to restrict the absolute highest official to attack if there is soldiers beneath him/her?

Treamayne wrote:
Also, nameless Soldier Tokens would likely be the first rank, and named soldiers (cards) the NCOs.


I thought about this too, but hesitated from doing it in order to not have too many ranks. I would like to illustrate the ranks on the cards themselves if I build the deck, how, I'm not sure yet.

Treamayne wrote:
Other thoughts:
Are you set on mono-white?

Any plans for a special operations teams? (Nav Squad Commandos)


Nav Squad Commandos would fit pretty well, but is pretty unremarkable as a whole. I kinda set out to try and make a fun Darien deck, he seemed also like the most potent general whom could pump out nameless soldiers to be forced into battle by their superiors, whom most likely will band with one of them during the war and come home scot-free.

Treamayne wrote:
If you are using Darien, King of Kjeldor then you likely want to follow a more Medieval hierarchy:
Infantry (Soldiers), Ranged (Archers, Siege), Light Cavalry (mounted, unarmored soldiery with lances, javelins, bows/crossbow), Heavy Cavalry (Knights), Command (Kings, Generals, Marshals).


This was an idea that struck me too, but was turned down because all the soldiers together happened to actually follow modern military naming conventions. A deck with archers, cavalry, knights and such would be possible but I'm not sure if there's enough playable/flavorful cards to really make out a deck. If only Wizards would make a heavily themed feudal set, with vassals, noble hierarchies, lords and lieges, disgruntled peasants, gritty medieval realism stuff. Maybe, in a parallel universe The Dark became Magic's first standalone set instead of Ice Age...

_________________
My stable:
Lady Orca (Browbeat-style choices deck)
Asmira, Holy Avenger (Selesnya graveyard tricks)
Keranos, God of Storms (Curiosity and creatures that deal noncombat damage)
Rasputin Dreamweaver (Voltron and x-spells)


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-09 11:23 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sherlock wrote:
Viperion wrote:
"Two or more soldiers may not attack unless a soldier of higher rank is also attacking."

Doesn't this work? The one soldier joining the team will not apply to the rule, since it's only one.

Unfortunately it doesn't work because you still have two or more soldiers (in total) attacking, which includes the higher ranked dude :?

Edit: BUT... "two or more soldiers of the same rank may not attack unless a soldier of higher rank is also attacking" would work, maybe?

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-09 11:45 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Well, one of the primary modern differences between officer ranks (besides the rank itself, of course) is how many Soldiers they can lead. NCOs can lead Fire Teams (3-4) and Squads (8-10). Company Grade Officers (O-1 to O-3; Lieutenants and Captain or Navy Ensign to Lieutenant) lead Platoons or Companies. Field Grade Officers (O-4 to O-6; Maj to Colonel or Navy Commander to Captain) can lead Platoons to Brigades (or an entire Vessel for Naval Captain), etc.

You could consider having the rank be required based on the number of attacking creatures. 3 or less can go out alone (like a fire team or squad) and each successive size division requires an increasingly higher rank to participate.

That said, Ranks such as Field Marshal, Captain and Colonel all go back to Medieval times. Field Marshal was a rank in Frankish Armies at least as old as Charlemagne (800 AD), Captain and Colonel go back to at least the 14th Century.

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HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-10 11:14 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-12 10:51 am
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
Sherlock wrote:
Viperion wrote:
"Two or more soldiers may not attack unless a soldier of higher rank is also attacking."

Doesn't this work? The one soldier joining the team will not apply to the rule, since it's only one.

Unfortunately it doesn't work because you still have two or more soldiers (in total) attacking, which includes the higher ranked dude :?

Edit: BUT... "two or more soldiers of the same rank may not attack unless a soldier of higher rank is also attacking" would work, maybe?


Dagnabbit. How about "A group of more than one soldier can only attack unless forced if one of them has a higher rank than all others"? Only in better, Magic-y wording.

Treamayne wrote:
Well, one of the primary modern differences between officer ranks (besides the rank itself, of course) is how many Soldiers they can lead. NCOs can lead Fire Teams (3-4) and Squads (8-10). Company Grade Officers (O-1 to O-3; Lieutenants and Captain or Navy Ensign to Lieutenant) lead Platoons or Companies. Field Grade Officers (O-4 to O-6; Maj to Colonel or Navy Commander to Captain) can lead Platoons to Brigades (or an entire Vessel for Naval Captain), etc.

You could consider having the rank be required based on the number of attacking creatures. 3 or less can go out alone (like a fire team or squad) and each successive size division requires an increasingly higher rank to participate.


This would be awesome if it could be successfully made into actual Magic rules. I feel also like it should scale with how large the army is. I'm not sure how many soldier tokens Darien decks usually produce, but if feels like it could be anywhere between a tidbit to a full boatload.

_________________
My stable:
Lady Orca (Browbeat-style choices deck)
Asmira, Holy Avenger (Selesnya graveyard tricks)
Keranos, God of Storms (Curiosity and creatures that deal noncombat damage)
Rasputin Dreamweaver (Voltron and x-spells)


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-11 6:30 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think if you step back and have a look at the flavour of the rule it starts looking a little weird too. If you have two Privates and a Lieutenant, they can all attack. But if you have two Privates and two Lieutenants, suddenly they need a Captain to attack. It doesn't make a heap of sense, to me.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-12 10:46 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-12 10:51 am
Age: Drake
Yeah you're right :|

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My stable:
Lady Orca (Browbeat-style choices deck)
Asmira, Holy Avenger (Selesnya graveyard tricks)
Keranos, God of Storms (Curiosity and creatures that deal noncombat damage)
Rasputin Dreamweaver (Voltron and x-spells)


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-14 1:02 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-07 2:03 am
Age: Wyvern
You would have to get your playgroups permission for this but what about this:

Your soldiers get banding but the band must conform with your attacking rules (so 2 privates + 1 lieutenant etc). I feel like this would be a very flavorful way of representing an "army" while utilizing an under-represented mechanic


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 Post subject: Re: Darien's Military flavor deck
AgePosted: 2015-Dec-14 10:05 am 
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Thanks for the suggestion but I don't really wanna have a deck that changes the actual rules :)

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Lady Orca (Browbeat-style choices deck)
Asmira, Holy Avenger (Selesnya graveyard tricks)
Keranos, God of Storms (Curiosity and creatures that deal noncombat damage)
Rasputin Dreamweaver (Voltron and x-spells)


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