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 Post subject: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-07 7:45 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Not much more to this thread... I'm just surprised at the vitriol people feel against this strategy.

I built Phenax for about 35 bucks on MTGO (well, 50, but Damnation can be reused easily enough) and I could sell all the salty tears I collected to make that cash back...

I could be down to 1 card in hand and JUST have Phenax out and people would relentlessly bash my head in...

So much for that list lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-07 9:51 pm 
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Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
That's interesting. My buddy has built one some time ago. Haven't tested it much yet, but it seems fair to me so far. Could you elaborate? Did they just preemptively gang up on you? What were the others playing? How casual was the environment?

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-07 10:27 pm 
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Well, Phenax is capable of going psuedo-infinite with just one card that could be in the 99, Eater of the Dead. Phenax being a God is difficult to deal with, so if you have Eater of the Dead and some swiftfoot boots, lightning greaves or a thousand-year elixir the mill out can come from nowhere and be very difficult to interact with.

If the problem is specifically mill, you probably are in the wrong or a very inexperienced playgroup. Mine has evolved to find grave nukes (like Nihil Spellbomb, Scavenging Ooze is fine though) to be unfun. So you're not going to play a dedicated graveyard strategy looking around at the other three players paranoid one'll undo all your work with one of several 1 mana artifacts or worse, an etb trigger off a land. As such, a few of the other players are starting to adopt my love of being milled.

But yeah, with a 99 card deck, noone else helping your strategy and not comboing off in any way, winning by mill out is impressive to me. Even against a self-milling deck, since in magic if you need to stop milling yourself you can decide to do so at no real cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-08 12:20 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Actually, the deck I mentioned is fairly successful in this regard. I helped him build the deck and we stumbled upon several very funny and certainly not goodstuff pieces.

Take Morphling, for example. Its days of glory are long past and no one really plays it now, except for nostalgia or novelty. But place it on the battlefield next to Phenax and you've got a (casual) POWERHOUSE. Boost its toughness with Swamps, then gatling-untap it with Islands and good ol' Morph becomes a clock like in the old days, maybe even faster. But still fair game I'd say.

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tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-08 1:00 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think people's dislike for mill is for several reasons. Foremost is that it suffers from being mini-stax in a way. It prevents your opponents from playing cards, not through resource denial, but through simply preventing them from being drawn. Seeing the best cards in your deck disappear ineffectually is never fun.

Secondly, a mill deck that can win in commander needs to absolutely tear through libraries. For each damage you are dealt, you need to mill 2.5 cards from each opponent, assuming your deck is the only mill. Once my own Phenax is up and running, that tends to mean I mill at least 15 cards a turn (or, in one memorable instance, 49 cards at once with a well placed Consuming Abberation). This is neccessary to have a chance at winning, but it's not always easy for other players to internalize that fact and not cry foul as they see their libraries erode away at lightning speed.

My Phenax doesn't get taken out too much lately either. It's best in small doses, I've found.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-08 6:43 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Antis wrote:
That's interesting. My buddy has built one some time ago. Haven't tested it much yet, but it seems fair to me so far. Could you elaborate? Did they just preemptively gang up on you? What were the others playing? How casual was the environment?


It's online, so the environment runs from cutthroat (but I ignore those games, because they are usually over before I get to 5 mana) to surprisingly chill (which is my new world to use over "casual"). About as variable as a large real life playgroup I was part of.

One game was with a Starke of Rath player, and Experiment Kraj. It's nothing of note in particular, but a chill game. I played Disciple of Deceit and started chucking cards for mana rocks. Milled once or twice with the Disciple and then was just irrationally targeted afterwards.

The above is just one example, and I know well enough to put it down to some level of variance, it's just that overall I was more surprised how much tuck, exile and and destruction Phenax faced, over say Xenagos (my list) which is infinitely more dangerous.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-08 8:38 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
Antis wrote:
That's interesting. My buddy has built one some time ago. Haven't tested it much yet, but it seems fair to me so far. Could you elaborate? Did they just preemptively gang up on you? What were the others playing? How casual was the environment?


It's online, so the environment runs from cutthroat (but I ignore those games, because they are usually over before I get to 5 mana) to surprisingly chill (which is my new world to use over "casual"). About as variable as a large real life playgroup I was part of.

One game was with a Starke of Rath player, and Experiment Kraj. It's nothing of note in particular, but a chill game. I played Disciple of Deceit and started chucking cards for mana rocks. Milled once or twice with the Disciple and then was just irrationally targeted afterwards.

The above is just one example, and I know well enough to put it down to some level of variance, it's just that overall I was more surprised how much tuck, exile and and destruction Phenax faced, over say Xenagos (my list) which is infinitely more dangerous.


I wasn't part of that game, but as an online player almost exclusively I would venture to guess that in that game the Disciple of Deceit was why you were targeted. If they had no targeted removal to get to the Disciple right away they wouldn't have another choice until it could be killed. You can't exactly leave a "tutor every turn or more than once a turn" card unanswered. And since there is no guarantee you aren't running Eater of the dead or other shenanigans, you may very well be the primary target in a game like that.

In general, my experience with mill on MTGO is that regular mill is mostly ignored, Mill with Exile is hated, Tutor mill is "kill it with fire." With so few regular playgroups you are always sitting down with a different group of 2-3 other players who can only react to the parts of the deck they see rather than drawing on past experience with that deck to "know" it's not up to some shady shenanigans (tm).

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-08 1:54 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If you Eatered or Oona'd i might try to blow you out of the game asap. But i guess if you were just milling an 'average/acceptable' amount i would still hate you somewhat but not worry about focusing you since i will at least know your clock is half as slow as mine.

Personally i've noticed people prefer to have their stuff hit the field and die in glorious combat or hit with spot removal than to never be able to be played. It's probably more enjoyable to be milled than getting Atarka'd on turn 4, though.

edit: tags didn't work for Eater and Oona, oh well, you know what i mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-08 2:17 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't hate mill, as long as you don't target me with it....

Well, actually.

Target me, but only when I'm playing Damia or Chainer, thanx :D


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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-13 4:50 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-07 11:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I find people are babies on MtG:O. I had someone scoop to me tapping a creature he sneak attacked into play on turn 2...

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-15 10:29 pm 
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The only reason I dislike mill is that it makes the degenerate graveyard decks even more powerful. If the mill deck is piloted responsibly and the pilot actually pays attention to other decks and their strategies, instead of just boosting that Mimeoplasm deck to an early victory, I think it's all fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-18 12:38 pm 
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Jelik wrote:
I find people are babies on MtG:O. I had someone scoop to me tapping a creature he sneak attacked into play on turn 2...


Funny how a social format turns to trash when people try to play it in anonymous ways (MTGO, trice). People should stick to playing EDH in person and the format will be better for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-18 4:52 pm 
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Location: New Zealand
Jivanmukta wrote:
Jelik wrote:
I find people are babies on MtG:O. I had someone scoop to me tapping a creature he sneak attacked into play on turn 2...


Funny how a social format turns to trash when people try to play it in anonymous ways (MTGO, trice). People should stick to playing EDH in person and the format will be better for it.


Except, at least in my experience, I've had just as many people sulk through a game that doesn't go their way in real life as I have online. The only difference is the quitting part. Online people will just quit, in real life, people sulk or become passive aggressive.

For the most part, my experience online has been way more positive then negative, especially once I put my initial bias aside (I too was convinced people online were going to be the scum of the Commander world). I'm close to preferring online now because it's cheaper, I get to play more (in my circumstances) and I find people people build all sorts of different lists similar to a larger real life playgroup would.

I'd really like to find a way to encourage more people to give online a go and build that community, as I believe it has great potential and could see myself making really good friends with some of the people who hang around here.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-19 9:52 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Jivanmukta wrote:
Jelik wrote:
I find people are babies on MtG:O. I had someone scoop to me tapping a creature he Sneak Attacked into play on turn 2...


Funny how a social format turns to trash when people try to play it in anonymous ways (MTGO, trice). People should stick to playing EDH in person and the format will be better for it.


Some of us don't have much choice. Are you really trying to say I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy this format because I can only play online? I'm travelling 320-350 days a year, I have no in-person playgroup or LGS at which to play, does that mean I don't deserve to enjoy EDH?

Are there people who let internet anonymity change their behavior in unsavory ways? Yes.
Does that apply to everyone who plays online? No, not even close.

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Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
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 Post subject: Re: Wow people REALLY hate mill...
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-24 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-02 11:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think one of the other aspects that hurt mill in EDH is that so much of an EDH deck is just really awesome cards. If you get milled in a 60-card format, you can say, "Oh, well. I'll just draw one my other Lightning Bolts."
In EDH, those amazing cards hitting the yard just cut out a bunch of the options your deck can do (excepting recursion heavy decks of course).

With my mill deck last week, I hit the Prossh player's Food Chain and he flipped out. {shrug}

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