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 Post subject: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-04 7:57 am 

Joined: 2014-Jun-12 12:28 am
Age: Wyvern
So i have been playing around with a cut throat Hermit Druid deck online and i cannot decide what has the most benefits in terms of win condition

1) Angel of Glory's Rise+Laboratory Maniac+Azami, Lady of Scrolls

or

2) Necrotic Ooze+Morselhoarder+Devoted Druid+Shivan Hellkite

Now number 1 has one fewer cards but number 2 has its benefits too. I would love to hear what everyones experiences have been

The deck with configuration number 1 looks like this

1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fatestitcher
1 Hermit Druid
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Mother of Runes
1 Narcomoeba
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellskite
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Beast Within
1 Brainstorm
1 Corpse Dance
1 Counterspell
1 Dark Ritual
1 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dispel
1 Dread Return
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Force of Will
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Intuition
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Mana Drain
1 Memory's Journey
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ponder
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Reanimate
1 Regrowth
1 Shallow Grave
1 Shred Memory
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Trade Secrets
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor

1 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Mystic Remora
1 Sylvan Library

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Flooded Grove
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Savannah
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Temple Garden
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills


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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-07 8:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
This is not really the forum you want for cutthroat deck development. This community embodies the "spirit of EDH" more than any other forum out there. Thankfully, you won't get condescension from most members either, this just isn't how they like their EDH (and why I haven't been very active here in a few years as I become more and more of a Spike).

I'd try The Source, and MTG Salvation (but there's quite a few bad players on Salvation, so take sugguestions with a grain of salt).

For what it's worth, I do not like the Lab Maniac package. Shivan Hellkite has some marginal utility on it's own and that combo is far more resilliant, plus if disrupted you don't auto-loose.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-08 2:16 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I like option 2 more. Also Trade Secrets got banned :(
I think Kumano, Master Yamabushi is better than Shivan Hellkite


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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-08 11:56 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Honestly, if you're 5 colour, you can use (presumably with a Dread Return package):

Angel of Glory's Rise, Laboratory Maniac and Selvala, Explorer Returned.

Basically, if you get to Angel's trigger, you can parley with Selvala. It's a mana ability, so it can't be responded to, and you win from the card draw.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-09 6:33 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
Honestly, if you're 5 colour, you can use (presumably with a Dread Return package):

Angel of Glory's Rise, Laboratory Maniac and Selvala, Explorer Returned.

Basically, if you get to Angel's trigger, you can parley with Selvala. It's a mana ability, so it can't be responded to, and you win from the card draw.


Make sure you also include anger in the yard for haste with that option...


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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-09 6:49 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Epsilon wrote:
Sinis wrote:
Honestly, if you're 5 colour, you can use (presumably with a Dread Return package):

Angel of Glory's Rise, Laboratory Maniac and Selvala, Explorer Returned.

Basically, if you get to Angel's trigger, you can parley with Selvala. It's a mana ability, so it can't be responded to, and you win from the card draw.


Make sure you also include anger in the yard for haste with that option...

Righto. Honestly, I prefer Lab Maniac combos. If someone disrupts your combo, you're generally done anyway. For Azami/Lab Maniac, it's two pieces of instant removal through your countermagic or Sudden Death/Spoiling. I almost think that some kind of instant graveyard hate is more likely (via something like Cremate).

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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-12 4:12 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Killane wrote:
I'd try The Source, and MTG Salvation (but there's quite a few bad players on Salvation, so take sugguestions with a grain of salt).

For what it's worth, I do not like the Lab Maniac package. Shivan Hellkite has some marginal utility on it's own and that combo is far more resilliant, plus if disrupted you don't auto-loose.


I'd agree that www.mtgthesource.com is great for competitive focused EDH.

The Lab Maniac package is way better than the assorted Necrotic Ooze combos. There are fewer opportunities for your opponents to respond productively, and even if they prevent you from winning, you can re-combo within a turn or two by using Memory's Journey with Pull from Eternity to rebuild your library.

If you're using Lab Maniac, you can also add in Doomsday as a back-up to Hermit Druid (it makes your mana more complicated, but it gives you an alternative way to set up your insta-win even against something like Rest in Peace or Anafenza).

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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-13 1:02 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
The Ooze/Hoarder/Druid/Hellkite combo is harder to respond to meaningfully than the Lab Maniac+Azami one. I think a split-second removal spell followed by Time Stop or Ethereal Haze is the only thing that gets it because your infinite mana engine doesn't involve passing priority until you've gone off completely and pointed fiery death at everyone (with infinite mana in your back pocket).

Selvala is an elf, so Angel of Glory's Rise won't bring her back.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-13 1:53 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
JJackson wrote:
Selvala is an elf, so Angel of Glory's Rise won't bring her back.

Oof. I get lots of things wrong, some days.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-13 9:51 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
JJackson wrote:
The Ooze/Hoarder/Druid/Hellkite combo is harder to respond to meaningfully than the Lab Maniac+Azami one. I think a split-second removal spell followed by Time Stop or Ethereal Haze is the only thing that gets it because your infinite mana engine doesn't involve passing priority until you've gone off completely and pointed fiery death at everyone (with infinite mana in your back pocket).


Yeah, but the problem is the damage part... if you've got an opponent who can't be meaningfully damaged/targeted/attacked, (could be camping behind Solitary Confinement, have damage prevention, etc.), your combo doesn't do anything.

With Lab Maniac, the goal is to put multiple human wizards into play at a time with Angel, and then tap one with Azami's ability to trip Lab Maniac. And then if they have some sort of response, you tap a different wizard to put your win on the stack again. And THEN even if they have some sort of split second removal, you can still win off a Snapcaster trigger giving Reanimate flashback to put Lab Maniac back in play...

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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-13 1:56 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Kemev wrote:
Yeah, but the problem is the damage part... if you've got an opponent who can't be meaningfully damaged/targeted/attacked, (could be camping behind Solitary Confinement, have damage prevention, etc.), your combo doesn't do anything.

Unless the damage prevention is from something like Pariah onto a creature with protection (or Angel's Grace with removal backup), you just re-nuke them in response.

With Lab Maniac, the goal is to put multiple human wizards into play at a time with Angel, and then tap one with Azami's ability to trip Lab Maniac. And then if they have some sort of response, you tap a different wizard to put your win on the stack again. And THEN even if they have some sort of split second removal, you can still win off a Snapcaster trigger giving Reanimate flashback to put Lab Maniac back in play...[/quote]Reanimate is a sorcery, so you just end up losing for drawing from an empty library there. Other reanimation effects might work, though you're still going get beaten by regular removal+split second removal if you try to wait for Snapcaster's trigger to resolve.

Honestly, if you've flipped your library, the exact win is trivial. I think you're more likely to have drawn your Lab Maniac or Azami than running into somebody who has Solitary Confinement or Leyline of Sanctity down when you go off, and you probably want some redundancy in case your cut-throat combo meta has people running Extract to shit in your biscuits.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-16 2:53 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-30 11:37 am
Age: Drake
In one of my non-Commander decks, the kill package after a deck mill is Ooze/Druid/Morselhoarder/Scholar of Athreos, with the additional backup of Walking Archive+Festercreep in case it needs to plow through any problem creatures like Platinum Emperion first. Those cards are specifically chosen to sneak around the "don't mess with me" tripwires--nothing targets, nothing gives -1/-1 counters (Melira), nothing forces a sacrifice (Sigarda), and of course nothing deals damage, but the other creatures and players are bound to be worn down anyway. Believe it or not, Festercreep is completely irreplaceable with that goal in mind. Of course, there's also a Blood Pet to stop players from using Word of Seizing with designs set on getting their own piece of the action first, and that could just as well be Wild Cantor.

The one perk you do get by having Shivan Hellkite as the kill ability, even though it opens up hexproof and damage prevention as outs, is that now a single Buried Alive plus a reanimator is sufficient to go off, even if you can't mill the rest of the cards. 3 creatures is enough to get your mana, then the hard-cast commander will search and plunk Hellkite into the graveyard, allowing more flexibility than having to specifically find Hermit Druid every game.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Hermit Druid win condition
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 5:13 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-13 2:34 am
Age: Wyvern
Who's your commander? If it's Scion, I'd play Dread Return + Sun Titan + Animate Dead on Worldgorger Dragon, and finish the loop with Niv-Mizzet Dracogenius. That way you can Scion the dragons into your graveyard and just win by drawing the Animate Dead.

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