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 Post subject: Jhoira looks VERY abusable.
AgePosted: 2007-Apr-30 9:42 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
There's an ability that seems a bit overpowered, no?

Suspend 4 on any huge spell you like. Time Stretch, Sundering Titan, Searing Wind, Darksteel Collossus, et. al.

You could even unsuspend Decree of Annhiallation and a Collosus on the same turn?


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 Post subject: Re: Jhoira looks VERY abusable.
AgePosted: 2007-Apr-30 11:56 am 
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Jeyal wrote:
There's an ability that seems a bit overpowered, no?


Indeed.. Jhoira is probably the most abusable general I've seen in a long time. Discussion is underway about whether it's tolerable as a general.

Gavin

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AgePosted: 2007-May-16 3:39 pm 
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I can see where some conflict could occur but I don't really see this as an overly powerful general. Yes, you can do some crazy things with her like suspend mass land destruction or the colossus on the same turn. At least in terms of the Sentry Box players, we already have quite a few really good strong decks that should be able to out pace Jhoira, anyway. Plus, there's always the new (need a word better than 'cycle') of cards that affect RFG'd face up cards anyway. There's always counter magic, too. Suspend is a new mechanic so it's natural that players would tense up and entertain the idea of banning her.

My vote is no ban. In fact, I want to see someone make a crazy (but not cheesy) build with her. Even better, I'd like to get beat by it! :)


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AgePosted: 2007-May-16 9:04 pm 
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She certainly does seem extremely powerful- possibly too much so. It's kind of a shame, as the card's concept is very cool.

Yes, you can suspend an Obliterate (or other mass removal spell) and a Colossus (or some generic big creature) on the same turn, and that's pretty hard to deal with. And you can keep suspending cards with the Obliterate ticking down- they'll all resolve after the dust has settled. Counterspells aren't going to help much here.

And we're not even considering the ability to resolve gigantic spells turn after turn after turn.

I'd rather see a deck in action before I make a judgement on whether it's too powerful or not, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that she gets the axe.

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AgePosted: 2007-May-16 11:24 pm 
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My brother has a Jhoira deck. I think he cheats. Every game, I swear, he suspends Obliterate or Decree of Annihilation on turn four. He's played it about a dozen times against me and others, now, and he always has one in hand. It's annoying.

That said, he's lost the vast majority of games that we've played, if he's even ever won. People aren't stupid. When they see Obliterate sitting in the poorly-titled RFG zone, they know the plan, and they know what to do about it. Four turns is a lot. In a four-player game, each player has the responsibility to deal only 4.3ish damage a turn. Not much, especially considering that many players have a 6-power flier in hand at all times.

Even in the games in which Obliterate has resolved (And remember that this particular sweeper is uncounterable. Other threats would be even easier to deal with.) he's put in such a vulnerable position that he can't win. One game, for instance, one player floated mana and cycled Decree of Great Justice into the post-apocalypse. Jhoira was at 4 life, and needed to leave Gargadon as a defender. Other times, it's a simple matter of holding back two land and a Serra Avenger, or a guildmage.

It would be a lucky hand in which a giant explosion can be suspended early with significant backup, all while fending off death until it actually managed to affect the game state. That doesn't even take into account the unwillingness of opponents to allow Jhoira to untap while in play.

Jhoira is a giant when it comes to enabling 'gorilla' cards, if you're familiar with Anthony Alongi's animal metaphors. However, she also has a massively high 'cocoon' rating (which Alongi never identified), meaning that she's a huge threat but not right now. You can see something really bad is about to happen, but you never have to deal with it because you have time to just deal with the player instead (slivers and thallids fall in this category, as well). By her nature, it's extremely easy to correct an imbalance using nothing but the tools within the individual game.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-18 11:46 am 
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Ban Ki-moon wrote:
That said, he's lost the vast majority of games that we've played, if he's even ever won.


Insightful post. Thanks!

I should note that suspending one's mass elimination spell right away is not the best play- power-wise or political-wise. People will still have lots of land in hand afterwards and will recover quickly. And, any half-wise player wouldn't suspend it out without having some plan or permanents in play to handle the next couple of turns. It would be a much better play after a few of one's gigantic creatures have hit play.

Is the card still overpowered? I still couldn't say, I still haven't seen it in action.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Jun-07 1:17 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-07 1:11 pm
Age: Drake
I was thinking about making a Jhoira deck. However, I wasn't really going for the whole Blow up the world idea.

I was thinking more about just suspending fatties, like Dragon Tyrant, or Tidespout Tyrant, and things to let me take more turns. Also, there is a small storm theme, stuff like Temporal Fissure or Mind's Desire, or even Dragonstorm.

Basically, I want to suspend two fatties or an extra turn card on T4, then on T6, play some cheap stuff (Mystical Tutor, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm), maybe a huge mana spell (Mana Geyser etc.), then a storm spell like Temporal Fissure or Dragonstorm or Desire. I then have a small counterwall for a wrath effect.

I don't think this strategy is very broken.


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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-11 6:27 am 
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It only took me one game to prove that Jhoira + fatties + mass kill made people want to throttle me. I'm going to try out a version that doesn't have the board sweepers to see if it's still degenerate.


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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-12 10:56 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Jhoira is good at one thing. Drawing fire.

Decree of Annhialation in 4 turns? The other 5 people at the table should be able to kill you by then.


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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-13 7:24 am 
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I have to agree; reminds me of Restore Balance. Which you'd think be a good card but 6 turns later . . not so much :)


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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-13 12:21 pm 
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RobRoy wrote:
It only took me one game to prove that Jhoira + fatties + mass kill made people want to throttle me. I'm going to try out a version that doesn't have the board sweepers to see if it's still degenerate.


As I had said to you, the reason why people wanted to 'throttle you' was because you had always espoused the idea that mass LD in EDH (and multiplayer games in general) was a huge no-no because it reduced player interactivity to zero. So towards that end no one expected you to play a deck with LD in it. Of course anyone can make a deck filled with ways to destroy all lands and piss off players even without some huge suspend creature to back it up. I remember being chastised for playing Razia's Purification for crying out loud!

I do know that in the future if someone ever did put a Jhoira in the RFG zone at the beginning of the game, most people would be gunning for them. it's like playing a combo deck in multiplayer - in the next game and as long as you play that deck everyone will make you enemy #1.


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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-13 12:59 pm 
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Cod wrote:
As I had said to you, the reason why people wanted to 'throttle you' was because you had always espoused the idea that mass LD in EDH (and multiplayer games in general) was a huge no-no because it reduced player interactivity to zero. So towards that end no one expected you to play a deck with LD in it. Of course anyone can make a deck filled with ways to destroy all lands and piss off players even without some huge suspend creature to back it up. I remember being chastised for playing Razia's Purification for crying out loud!

I do know that in the future if someone ever did put a Jhoira in the RFG zone at the beginning of the game, most people would be gunning for them. it's like playing a combo deck in multiplayer - in the next game and as long as you play that deck everyone will make you enemy #1.


Well, that's the other reason why I'm taking out the mass kill - I might live longer!


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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-13 1:24 pm 
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Cod wrote:
As I had said to you, the reason why people wanted to 'throttle you' was because you had always espoused the idea that mass LD in EDH (and multiplayer games in general) was a huge no-no because it reduced player interactivity to zero. So towards that end no one expected you to play a deck with LD in it. Of course anyone can make a deck filled with ways to destroy all lands and piss off players even without some huge suspend creature to back it up. I remember being chastised for playing Razia's Purification for crying out loud!


This is an antiquated viewpoint that I don't hold to personally, in fact I object to it much of the time. Land Destruction (point or mass) is just as much a part of the game as hand disruption, wrath spells, permission, infinite combos or a fast rush. The old MODO 1/1/1 Emperor community is a good example of how ridiculous formats get if everyone complains about anything which interferes with an opponent's plan.

Yes... Geddon or Haups can be frustrating, but no more so than any other form of mass disruption if you're prepared for it. The problem with land destruction is that most people don't prepare for it, don't know how to play against it, and assume they won't run into it... so it's a major weakness. No one likes having their weaknesses capitalized on, but the correct response is to remove the weakness, not claim that it's taboo.

EDH decks, on the whole, lean on their mana base WAY too much... they're bloated, and don't have a good answer to Geddon effects. I've built a deck specificially to capitalize on that, which I play from time to time to keep people honest... and my local group has learned how to deal with it no problem. They keep a couple of lands in hand once they get to 6 or 7 in play, and do play some 2-3 drop creatures so they don't have to get back to 5 mana before doing anything. Frequent mass destruction is ineffecient, and tactical instances don't make the format implode or become boring or uber-competetive. And that's not even accounting for multiplayer political balance (a force I'm never happy to rely on). Hopefully your playgroup can be mature about it and elevate their game rather than refuse to play against it all.

Now, what I DO object to is people who play land destruction for no reason... but I object to anyone who just tries to be interfering/annoying without good reason. If you're going to blow up the world, realize that it makes the game less fun for everyone else and do it in such a way that it improves your board position enormously.

So IMO:

* Geddon just to piss everyone off, but leaving yourself just as screwed as everyone else, or Joklhaups when the game is just getting interesting, but you're not in any particular danger, is Uber-lame...
* Obliterate as a deterrant/emergency reset button when you're being overwhelmed is Frustrating, but reasonable (no morally worse than Wrath or Disk really... just more drastic, and not nearly so much if people know it's coming). This is especially true if you've kept a couple of lands and a cheap creature in hand to rebuild faster than everyone else... again, you have a REASON.
* Razia's purification is just a puzzle card.. I've got no problems with it at all. You have the advantage of keeping cards in hand to make it asymmetric, but everyone has interesting decisions to make and can still be interactive afterwards if they're reasonable careful.
* DoA leaving yourself with a suspended 5/5 creature and Form of the Dragon as the only permanent (or card in hand)... that's just an awesome win.

The purpose of EDH is to have a competitive format which encourages casual play. Manners are still important, but competitive is as competetive does... all strategies are still fair game.

G

Ps: Personally, I'm a fan of sideboarding in EDH games from a small selection of cards, after generals are declared... but most groups won't go in for it. A few silver bullets/gold shield cards as tutor targets make the game very interesting.

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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-14 9:03 am 
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Hrm...declare generals, then SB? Has some merit. Lemme think on it.

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AgePosted: 2007-Jun-14 11:00 pm 
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Sheldon wrote:
Hrm...declare generals, then SB? Has some merit. Lemme think on it.


Sounds cool !!! :twisted:

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