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 Post subject: Cards that need to go
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-04 6:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-26 9:42 am
Age: Hatchling
Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will

As generals...Zur and Jhoira, i cringe when I see either of them.

Cards that can come back....crucible and chaos orb.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that need to go
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-04 6:32 pm 
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jmorrow22 wrote:
Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will


I think there's a thread for Will, and Tinker isn't that good. Anything it can fetch up has numerous, numerous answers in every color at cheap mana costs. Especially in such a wide open and interesting format. If you keep losing to either of these cards, look for an innovative answer.

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As generals...Zur and Jhoira, i cringe when I see either of them.

Again, there are answers. Look for them. Pull From Eternity works ok against Jhoira, and Tranquility is just amusing against Zur. Just use some imagination.

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Cards that can come back....crucible and chaos orb.

There's a thread for Crucible, and Chaos Orb is too hard to rule about. Did the card really reach a foot above the table? What is it touching? Did it flip enough times? It's just a hassle and a waste of time and energy.

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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 8:22 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
I'm with Scout on this one.

Tinker itself is only a sorcery and is answerable as are all the cards it can fetch.

Yawgmoth's Will doesn't say "win the game" like it does in Legacy.

Zur is rather easy to keep off the board as well. Plus people who play Zur in terms of making him huge is just another way to recognize they are boring people and you don't want to play with them anyways. I play U/w/b as well and use Dakkon as my general. Why? Because the artwork is cooler and Zur looks retarded even though he would make my deck better.

Jhoira is more of a problem but remember that suspended cards can be countered. Overall Jhoira is a crappy creature anyways and will never dish out 40 damage to an opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that need to go
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 10:02 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
jmorrow22 wrote:
Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will

As generals...Zur and Jhoira, i cringe when I see either of them.

Cards that can come back....crucible and chaos orb.



Will is so under powered in this format that it is silly to suggest banning it. I mean it is good, as in playable, but hardly broken. I play it in zero of my 11 decks. It doesn't make that cut.

Tinker gets what? Colossus? Akroma's Memorial? Again, there are answers.

Don't like Jhoira? Run Damping Matrix or Cursed Totem or Faith's Fetters. Zur hates Cage of Hands and Tranquil Grove and Aven Mindcensor.

Chaos Orb is a joke of a card. I'd make Chaos Confetti out of it if you tried to play it at a table. Seriously, how do you get anyone to agree on a ruling for that thing?

Well Crucible would be the first card to go in an Armageddon style deck, that's for certain. If it were unbanned, I bet every game would boil down to whom got theirs out first, protected it and solidified their mana base.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards that need to go
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 10:26 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
Philatio wrote:
Well Crucible would be the first card to go in an Armageddon style deck, that's for certain. If it were unbanned, I bet every game would boil down to whom got theirs out first, protected it and solidified their mana base.


No hyperbole in that statement, no sir.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 10:47 am 

Joined: 2008-May-01 3:07 am
Age: Dragon
American_Kid wrote:
Overall Jhoira is a crappy creature anyways and will never dish out 40 damage to an opponent.


Well... I actually did 22 once with Jhoira, but that was the dullest game ever. We both didn't draw anything but lands.

But yeah, these cards do not have to be banned. Actually most them encourage me to find good answers.


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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 11:16 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
American_Kid wrote:
I'm with Scout on this one.
Overall Jhoira is a crappy creature anyways and will never dish out 40 damage to an opponent.


Prolly true. For shits and giggles, in my Jhoira deck, since I play just about every draw 7, I threw in a Diviner's Wand. It auto-equips to her, then you play a draw 7 and swing with a 9/9 flier. Still, I have yet to kill a player with her via general damage, even with all my redundant Tinker effects for this card.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 12:43 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Tinker is an interesting case, because it's power in different formats comes from different aspects. In 460 formats, Vintage especially, Tinker is busted primarily because it lets you put the artifact into play without paying its mana cost: No one ever pays 5 mana for spells in Vintage until the game is decided. For comparison, Fabricate and Reshape are both FAAR less powerful than Tinker... so it's not the searching aspect which makes Tinker absurd (it's useful, but I'd say 80% of it's power in such formats is the accelerant factor). Another comparison would be Flash... problematic in Vintage et al for similar reasons.

Contrasted to that, paying 4, 6, 8 for an artifact in EDH isn't actually that big of a deal.Yes, saving a bunch of mana is nice... and if you can Tinker early it's even better, and the fact that opponents don't see it coming is always good... but Tinker isn't that much better than better than Demonic tutor in EDH, if it's even better at all.

Vintage is primarily about uber-tempo and card advantage... EDH is primarily about card selection and card power. As such, comparing Tinker in the two formats is fallacious... and it's really not something that needs to be banned in EDH.

Yawg Will is somewhat similar... it's very powerful because of the card selection it gives you, and "used fairly" is far more powerful in EDH than in other formats... but it's very difficult to use it "unfairly" because doing so requires a well tuned machine (multiple fast mana cards, etc) which much more difficult to arrange in EDH.

G

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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 2:39 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-17 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
American_Kid wrote:
Yawgmoth's Will doesn't say "win the game" like it does in Legacy.


Try Vintage :lol:

If it was Legacy legal I would win every game. How dumb would storm combo be if you could play up to 4 Wills


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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-05 10:14 pm 
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Philatio wrote:
For shits and giggles, in my Jhoira deck, since I play just about every draw 7, I threw in a Diviner's Wand. It auto-equips to her, then you play a draw 7 and swing with a 9/9 flier. Still, I have yet to kill a player with her via general damage, even with all my redundant Tinker effects for this card.


I hereby award you one billion style points! :lol:

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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-07 8:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-26 9:42 am
Age: Hatchling
Tinker gets Mindslaver....not any of that other garbage. So maybe it's slaver that needs to go.


And Will is only very good late game, and makes for a terrible end to an otherwise good game.

Point taken about crucible, armageddon/stax decks would probably spoil the format.


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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-08 6:31 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 1:02 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, FL
We have no problem playing orb in 5 color, its quite an easy card to play with actually, the problem with it, that no one mentioned is

When its reveled, you have to be anal about everyone tapping their cards with a push pin for the rest of the game, and when you play new cards, you have to play them like 6 inches from other cards, so it just makes playing around it unfun and annoying.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Sep-23 6:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-23 6:40 am
Age: Drake
I've got an Orb in my Cube and in our DC10 stack, and some people have one in their 5c. In our area it reads:
"1, T: If Chaos Orb is in play, sacrifice it and destroy target permenant. Chaos Orb cannot be untapped while this ability is on the stack."

It becomes a one-use psuedo-counterable colorless Vindicate. "If ~ is in play" clause lets you boomerang/disenchant it in response, and the "cannot be untapped" clause keeps you from doing silly things of blowing stuff up. I haven't put one in any of my EDH decks because of financial reasons.


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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-23 9:21 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
LogantheBard wrote:
I've got an Orb in my Cube and in our DC10 stack, and some people have one in their 5c. In our area it reads:
"1, T: If Chaos Orb is in play, sacrifice it and destroy target permenant. Chaos Orb cannot be untapped while this ability is on the stack."

It becomes a one-use psuedo-counterable colorless Vindicate. "If ~ is in play" clause lets you boomerang/disenchant it in response, and the "cannot be untapped" clause keeps you from doing silly things of blowing stuff up. I haven't put one in any of my EDH decks because of financial reasons.


That's actually a good idea, except that a bunch of cards just got banned because they had format specific errata, which this sort of text change sounds similar to.

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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-23 10:55 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Chaos Orb is indeed a wonderful example of a card which should be supported by whatever house rules your group uses. It's great fun, but totally unsupportable in tournament/untrusted games.

Personally, the most fun house version I've seen was "T, sacrifice: Choose a permanent. <Flip Chaos Orb as printed>. If it's touching the named permanent, destroy that permanent and any other permanents attached to it."

It approximates the physical-nearness of cards, without requiring silly "play with all your cards spread out" which makes the card unfun.

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