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R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8283
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Author:  sagest_owl [ 2011-May-01 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

Assuming that Un-cards are legal in the format, I understand that that R&D's Secret Lair would serve as a Rolling Stones, allowing old cards like Wall of Brambles and Illusionary Wall to attack, since they don't have the defender ability printed on them, and "wall" no longer has rules text attached to it

So, if that is true, would a Wall of Blood be able to attack? It doesn't have the defender ability printed on it, but it does have the reminder text "Walls cannot attack". Is reminder text also rules text?

Basically, I just want to swing will a big wall.

Author:  Rollcage [ 2011-May-01 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

Reminder text is just that. It isn't adding rules to the card, it's just reminding you about a relenant rule. A rule that no longer exists. Swing away with yould blood-breathing wall.

Author:  papa_funk [ 2011-May-01 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

sagest_owl wrote:
Assuming that Un-cards are legal in the format


... R&Ds Secret Lair would be banned within seconds.

Author:  obsidiandice [ 2011-May-01 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

The stated reasons for un-cards being illegal in EDH is that "they cannot be consistently interpreted by the rules."

I've got a friend who's been building a deck around R&D's Secret Lair using fetchlands to search out Island Fish Jasconius and activating Thallids infinite times for free. We've come up with quite a few difficult-to-determine situations like this where rules have changed and it's difficult to say what exactly "play without errata" means.

Author:  sagest_owl [ 2011-May-01 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

Thanks for the clarification.

Never thought to use a fetchland to fetch a fish. That would definitely be interesting. Millions of tokens, though...eh.

I like the Un-cards for the interesting situations they present. Some I've learned to avoid (my Number Crunch draws too many groans, and casting a Silver Myr as a Jitte with Richard Garfield, Ph.D drew some frowns). Rod of Spanking got some giggles, though I never spanked someone out of the game.

Author:  erronius [ 2011-May-01 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

obsidiandice wrote:
The stated reasons for un-cards being illegal in EDH is that "they cannot be consistently interpreted by the rules."


Any chance you could link to that? I have read through the official rules quite thoroughly and can't seem to find that.

Author:  obsidiandice [ 2011-May-01 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

erronius wrote:
obsidiandice wrote:
The stated reasons for un-cards being illegal in EDH is that "they cannot be consistently interpreted by the rules."


Any chance you could link to that? I have read through the official rules quite thoroughly and can't seem to find that.

I just remembered the phrasing and wasn't quite sure where it was from, but a quick google search found this in Sheldon Menery's SCG article on the banned list:
Sheldon wrote:
You might have heard that there are Three EDH Banning Principles:
1) When a card's power level in multiplayer EDH is significantly in excess of both its mana cost and power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorhythm]
2) A card's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players, and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone in the game [The Power 8]
3) A card or class of cards cannot be consistently interpreted by all players [Silver-bordered cards]

Author:  erronius [ 2011-May-01 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

I can't find it anywhere saying (from an RC source) that Unhinged/Unglued cards are banned.

I hear your reference to the "can't be consistently [etc]" but that's far from an explicit yes/no. I found the following link:

http://www.mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewt ... f=2&t=5295

And the question would seem to be answered in the second post - but it's not. The quote of "vintage legal" in fact only adds more confusion to the question.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resour ... sfrvintage

That's the vintage list - no references to "and oh by the way, you can't play with unhinged cards."

Looking through gatherer and going to this page:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... seid=74327

doesn't solve the issue - again, nothing saying it's banned. And once more back to the Vintage legality page:

[quote]Vintage decks may consist of cards from all Magic card sets, any edition of the core set, and all special sets, supplements, and promotional printings released by Wizards of the Coast./quote]

This seems to be a pretty clear statement that you can play unhinged, though it is not explicit.

Author:  obsidiandice [ 2011-May-01 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

erronius wrote:
I can't find it anywhere saying (from an RC source) that Unhinged/Unglued cards are banned.

Sheldon Menery is the on the Commander Rules Committee, and specifically used Unglued cards as an example of banned cards. That's one RC source. Papa Funk is also a member, and posted on this very page referencing the fact that they are not legal. That's two sources.

The place where this is stated in the official rules is Rule #7, setting the base card pool to Vintage legality. Unglued and Unhinged cards are not legal in Vintage. I can't find where this is specifically stated, but here is some evidence given your link:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... seid=74327
This is the gatherer page you linked to for City of Ass, an Unhinged Card. Under Formats, the only listed format is Unhinged - the only "format" in which un-cards are legal. Compare to the page for Badlands, which lists all the formats it is legal in, including Vintage and Commander.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... eid=202626

I don't really feel like arguing the point futher, so if that doesn't convince you feel free to seek out clarification from other sources.

Author:  erronius [ 2011-May-01 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

OK, so I'm asking for clarification from other sources. Just throwing out a couple points here:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... eid=194971

That's the page for Gifts Ungiven. It specifically says "banned" in several formats. City of Ass makes no such claims.

Also, papa funk's post didn't say that un-cards are banned, just that if they were legal, "... R&Ds Secret Lair would be banned within seconds." (As a side point, isn't there a difference between oracle text/rules changes and "errata"? I thought errata was more the reminder text - just to give an example, if errata included changed such as Walls retroactively getting defender, couldn't you just as easily argue that cards that say "comes into play" or "removed from the game" have no effect because the modern terminology is etb/exiled?)

And I guess my big question here is, if they ARE banned, why isn't there a clearer indication of that somewhere (i.e. on the ban list it could say "All unhinged and unglued cards"). Wouldn't that be simpler?

Author:  Boshea [ 2011-May-01 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

obsidiandice wrote:
erronius wrote:
I can't find it anywhere saying (from an RC source) that Unhinged/Unglued cards are banned.

The place where this is stated in the official rules is Rule #7, setting the base card pool to Vintage legality.

Correction, Vintage legal card pool and Shahrazad.

Author:  Mooney [ 2011-May-01 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

City of Ass's page also doesn't say it IS legal in any format other than "Un-Sets."

Putting a line for each format and writing "banned" would be a waste of time. If it were legal in any other set it would be listed there, just like it is for Gifts Ungiven.

Also, it says right on the Unhinged booster pack that it is not for DCI sanctioned play. How's that for another source?

Author:  erronius [ 2011-May-01 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

Quote:
Putting a line for each format and writing "banned" would be a waste of time. If it were legal in any other set it would be listed there, just like it is for Gifts Ungiven.


However, it's far from difficult for the EDH RC to add ONE line to the banned list saying "Unhinged and Unglued cards not allowed". Right?

Also, I'm not sure how the change to Commander will affect this, but at least historically, EDH has not been sanctioned by the DCI. So what is the importance of what the booster pack says?

Author:  Mooney [ 2011-May-01 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

erronius wrote:
Also, I'm not sure how the change to Commander will affect this, but at least historically, EDH has not been sanctioned by the DCI. So what is the importance of what the booster pack says?

The fact that they're listing Commander legality on Gatherer should shed some light on this, even though I mostly meant it as a joke :/

Author:  papa_funk [ 2011-May-01 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: R&D Secret Lair, Reminder Text, and You

erronius wrote:
Also, papa funk's post didn't say that un-cards are banned, just that if they were legal, "... R&Ds Secret Lair would be banned within seconds."


And since R&Ds Secret Lair is not on the banlist, that would rather strongly imply that Un-cards are not legal.

"EDH is played with vintage legal cards". Un-cards are not Vintage-legal.

Some of them would be fine in ordinary play. Others are horribly broken. Others are confusing and require guru-level rules knowledge. Others just don't work. And no, we're not interested in identifying which are which.

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