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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 8:54 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-11 10:50 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Philadelphia, PA
They didn't hit it every single game but there are enough cheap tutors for both parts and cheap artifact accell to get it out that early. And while turn 3-4 is god draw level the fact that it can be reliably cheated out by turn 5-6 makes it so dangerous. The issue we see with Titan is that it can be a one sided Armageddon with a 7/10 body attached. And killing it hits any remaining lands you had or managed to assemble. I don't know any player who finds it fun to be sitting there completely unable to play their spells when everyone else is able to.

The only sure fire way to stop it is to counter it and remove it from the game. And since not everyone plays counters or devotes 5+ slots to yard hate, I think it deserves the axe.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 9:12 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Darklantern wrote:
They didn't hit it every single game but there are enough cheap tutors for both parts and cheap artifact accell to get it out that early. And while turn 3-4 is god draw level the fact that it can be reliably cheated out by turn 5-6 makes it so dangerous. The issue we see with Titan is that it can be a one sided Armageddon with a 7/10 body attached. And killing it hits any remaining lands you had or managed to assemble. I don't know any player who finds it fun to be sitting there completely unable to play their spells when everyone else is able to.

The only sure fire way to stop it is to counter it and remove it from the game. And since not everyone plays counters or devotes 5+ slots to yard hate, I think it deserves the axe.

I don't like getting my lands hit either but Titan is one of the few strong checks against 5 color control decks.
I think the issue is that the meta needs to adjust to it, just like if you had a player who was consistently playing any kind of recursive combo; which is exactly how this should be treated.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 11:50 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Titan is not an armageddon, nor does it hit all the remaining lands someone has unless they're playing too many fetch-, dual- and shock-lands... in which case Titan says "Destroy target overstuffed wallet."

As tempest says, Titan is the best foil to the twinks who say "I just play five colour with all the best cards". It's also the best way for a budget Timmy to keep George ("I'm rich so I can win more magic than you") in check. And that guy will ruin an EDH environment faster than anything else.

Titan doesn't hit:

* Painlands
* Hybrid lands
* Three or Two colour ETF-tapped lands
* Mimic lands
* Slow lands
* Lair lands
* Artifact lands
* Karoos
* Tribal lands
* Futuresight lands
* Snow lands
* Signet lands
* Battery lands
* Tainted lands

Even in a deck constrained to two colours, that's almost half the landbase which is immune to Titan. If a deck builder does so with a proper balance of basic and non-basic lands, playing Titan becomes -EV.

And 4-5 pieces of graveyard hate after sideboarding is a perfectly reasonable expectation anyway: graveyard recursion is one of the most common strategies in EDH.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 3:15 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Genomancer wrote:
Titan doesn't hit:

* Painlands
* Hybrid lands
* Two colour ETF-tapped lands
* Mimic lands
* Slow lands
* Artifact lands (x2)
* Karoos
* Tribal lands
* Futuresight lands
* Snow lands
* Signet lands
* Battery lands
* Tainted lands

* Other Futuresight lands (x2)

Even in a deck constrained to two colours, that's almost half the landbase which is immune to Titan.

Er, I suppose so, if you're only running 32 lands. Also you must be playing UB or BR because the tribals aren't available to most combinations, taints are only available to B/X (and are pretty bad against Titan anyway if you're trying to minimize your number of basic land types), and everything other than painlands, hybrids, and karoos are only available to allied color pairs. Even then, you're still 50% likely (ignoring multiplayer politics for a moment) to be down 4 lands even if Titan isn't recurred.

The most embarrassing thing about Titan is that in a highlander format, the very deck it should be good against (5-color) is actually the most capable of adapting and making itself immune. 2-color decks are essentially forced to play several basic land types, and even in 3-color it's pretty hard to fix your mana without using some fetchlands, either in the form of Terramorphic Expanse or Polluted Delta. 5-color can simply run 10 karoos, 5 Alaran trilands, 5 storage lands, 5 vivids, Reflecting Pool, Exotic Orchard, and any 12 others and be totally fine every game.

I'm not ready to declare Titan bannable, but I'm perfectly happy to call it stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 3:47 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
A two-colour deck plays more lands with basic types but will lose a max of two lands per trigger.. Now, that double-trigger thing is pretty annoying and is why I don't mind that the Titan argument never dies. It really is quite a powerful card.

But...let's say it's a UR deck (just to make it tricky). We have the following options without basic land types:

Multicolour Lands with few drawbacks
a Good Painland (Shivan Reef)
a Crappy Painland (Caldera Lake)
a Hybrid Filter (Cascade Bluffs)
a Ravnica Karoo (Izzet Boilerworks)
City of Brass
Forbidden Orchard
Gemstone Mine (ugh)
Grand Coliseum
Rupture Spire
2 Vivid Lands

More drawbacks but still technically multicolour (yeah, some of these are stretching it)
Tendo Ice Bridge
Thran Quarry (ugh)
Tarnished Citadel
Undiscovered Paradise
Ravaged Highlands & Seafloor Debris (UGH)
Shimmering Grotto & some variations of the same card
Mirrodin's Core
Ancient Ziggurat & Pillar of the Paruns (neither of which are playable in most decks)

One colour lands without land types
4 Cycling lands (Onslaught + Urzas)
2 Artifact Lands
Some Kamigawa Legendary lands
Some one-colour charge lands
Some one-colour depletion lands (ugh)

Even if the options aren't all attractive that's still a lot of playable lands, especially if you consider the 5C Un-Titan-able manabase to be playable.. I know a deck that uses that philosophy and here's my experience with it:

- CIPT lands have crappy synergy with Ravnica Karoos
- Global Ruin is the end of fun

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-21 1:36 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
tarnar wrote:
One colour lands without land types
4 Cycling lands (Onslaught + Urzas)
2 Artifact Lands
Some Kamigawa Legendary lands
Some one-colour charge lands
Some one-colour depletion lands (ugh)

You forgot Hammerheim, Tolaria, and Urborg! Well, and Pendelhaven, but that card's actually pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-24 2:27 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
I personally think Titan Balances out, because in most cases I've seen it used, the "leaves play" ability ends up forcing the owner to lose at least one of his own lands (or more, if there are no duals). The likelihood of this goes down as the size of your multiplayer game increases, but in the case of large games, his impact is minimal unless the user is "picking on just you", in which case I contend the problem is the player, not the card itself.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 3:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Aug-26 4:57 pm
Age: Hatchling
We had a EDH tournament a few months ago. It was really fun and in the end I became 5th (or you could say partially 4th, same points only he lost from nr1 and 2, I lost from nr1 and 3).
Zur the Enchanter became first
Braids, Cabal Minion became second
Niv-Mizzet the Fire Mind became third
and after that the more *normal* decks like my Uril, the Miststalker deck.

Intensive playtesting concluded that Zur the Enchanter always wins from Braids, Cabal Minion. A T3 or T4 drop of Zur and an attack the next turn can lock the opponent down. I'm not sure which enchantments he plays. I got killed by Back to Basics, but I do know there are many other ways to lose (for instance the enchantment that says that all mana is black). Therefore I'd request a ban on Zur the Enchanter as a general.

Braids, Cabal Minion is also terrifying and I saw that like half a month after the tournament it got banned as a general.

Niv-Mizzet is also strong. It can kill the opponent using cheap tricks like Curiosity and there are 3+ similar cards. Granted Blue/Red can't tutor for them, but it can draw a lot of cards and back up with counters and burn. It's impossible to ban all the combo pieces of Niv-Mizzet and therefore I'd like a ban on that general.

Rofellos is also very powerful. It was banned, but not anymore. Although I think that's not directly a problem I do think there are some combo-pieces like Staff of Domination that can and should be banned because of its power in combination with Rofellos and many other cards that can go infinite.

Anyway, I may be whining a bit too much, but those are cards that I think should be banned. They can be fine, but in the hands of skilled players it's just impossible to win against.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 12:40 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-13 2:01 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Texas
I wanted to get people's opinions regarding Jester's Scepter. Specifically how it applies to when someone shuffles an opponents General into their library, and then uses the Scepter and manages to grab the opponents General with it? It seems to me that this is the most permanent method of dealing with an opponents General that is available in the game... not to mention that in my humble opinion it would also be the single most annoying method. Not only does it affect Generals this way but each of the 5 other cards that you fetch with the Scepter. Simply put I think that because this is a singleton format, the Scepter amounts to the following text:

"Exile the top-5 cards of an opponents library from the game face down. Those cards are inaccessible for the rest of the game, unless that opponent happens to have Pull from Eternity or a similar card (one which happens to currently be banned in EDH, namely Riftsweeper)."

In otherwords, this single card can pretty much break combo's, break generals, break decks in general. I think it is the most sick card in the format.

Now I am not saying that we should ban it. But it is certainly worth some consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 12:54 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tharian wrote:
Specifically how it applies to when someone shuffles an opponents General into their library, and then uses the Scepter and manages to grab the opponents General with it?


Has this ever actually happened?

It seems like a huge number of things need to happen exactly in order for it to work. A player suddenly finding themselves without access to a general in 1 out of a thousand games they play doesn't seem like much of a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 1:38 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
papa_funk wrote:
It seems like a huge number of things need to happen exactly in order for it to work.


Not really. Scepter + one other card is enough:
Spin into Myth
Time Ebb
Excommunicate
Hinder
Memory Lapse
Lapse of Certainty
Disempower (on Sharuum and other artifacts - can also be used to bounce the Scepter for another go)
Temporal Spring
etc.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 2:10 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
But killing the scepter turns the cards beneath it face up.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 2:15 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
So it's a two card combo? That doesn't win the game, just deals really-permanently with a single creature, including the General? And any instant speed shuffle effect (fetchlands, Mystical Tutor, etc.) can 'hide' the General elsewhere in the deck?

Annoying, sure, but I don't know that it's game-breaking. Actually, I kind of like it. Seems quirky but also seems like the slots spent on it are being spent on something narrow.

Jeyal, the Scepter has no leaves-play text on it. That's why Turbofog used it, both to mill and to demoralize with a timely counter.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 7:02 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Tharian wrote:
"Exile the top-5 cards of an opponents library from the game face down. Those cards are inaccessible for the rest of the game, unless that opponent happens to have Pull from Eternity or a similar card (one which happens to currently be banned in EDH, namely Riftsweeper)."

Pull from Eternity and Riftsweeper specify "face-up," so they don't interact with Sceptered cards.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 9:18 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-13 2:01 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Texas
intreped wrote:
Tharian wrote:
"Exile the top-5 cards of an opponents library from the game face down. Those cards are inaccessible for the rest of the game, unless that opponent happens to have Pull from Eternity or a similar card (one which happens to currently be banned in EDH, namely Riftsweeper)."

Pull from Eternity and Riftsweeper specify "face-up," so they don't interact with Sceptered cards.

so... they do.... apparently that makes the scepter even more devastating than I initially thought...


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