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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-12 8:27 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-23 6:40 am
Age: Drake
I'm assuming he meant Cephalid Illusionist.

I'm on the Sundering Titan banning bandwagon. The one-sided swings of the card are bad enough, but when you do it again on the way out, you can't lose. I'll stop playing EDH before I water down my decks with subpar lands to avoid a sundering titan wipe.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-13 11:24 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
How on earth do you pull of a turn 1 win with Cephalid Illusionist? I mean, yes, I can see where milling yourself into a massive Living Death or Yawg Will could be pretty broken, but how on earth do you get the Illusionist, a way to target it an absurd number of times, and the mana to play all of this on the first turn?

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-13 2:12 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Opening hand:

Cephalid Illusionist
Ancient Tomb // City of Traitors
Shuko
Lotus Petal // Mox Diamond + land // Chrome Mox + blue card
Ornithopter // Phyrexian Walker // a Kobold // Shield Sphere
NOT a Nacromobea
NOT a Dread Return

Play Illusionist
Play Shuko
Mill your library
Dread Return ... ... something? You don't have an unbounded sacrifice outlet in play so the 'easy' Reveillark win isn't there.

Anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-13 5:26 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The easy answer is Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath. That's the classic finisher to that combo. I think that Lord of Extinction + Dragon Breath would be more efficient, though, because then you don't have to fill your deck with 40 power worth of useless guys. If you want to kill multiple players on that turn, go for Karmic Guide -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker -> Pestermite/Sky Hussar - this one's probably the best, but you'll be more likely to draw a combo piece. To prevent that from being a game-ender for you, include Bridge From Below and Cabal Therapy. That way, you can target yourself with a discard spell for no mana and still have three guys in play. This has been combo chat with BKM.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-13 9:36 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
The easy answer is Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath. That's the classic finisher to that combo. I think that Lord of Extinction + Dragon Breath would be more efficient, though, because then you don't have to fill your deck with 40 power worth of useless guys.


Except that Dragon Breath won't return itself to play on Lord of Extinction. Gotta cost 6+, and LoE is only 5. Thanks for explaining, though. Makes much more sense now.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-13 9:52 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
oops


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-14 10:04 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
BKM, thanks for the reminder that you can just go straight for Kiki-Jiki with Karmic Guide.

Now.. how to do it without a combat step...

Dread Return on Karmic Guide
Karmic Guide gets Kiki-Jiki
Kiki-Jiki makes Karmic Guide token
Karmic Guide token gets Sakashima (as Kiki-Jiki)
Saka-Jiki makes Karmic Guide token
Karmic Guide token gets Sky Hussar
Sky Hussar untaps both Saka-Jiki and Kiki-Jiki

Now you can get an extra creature per iteration of the loop, allowing you to get an unbounded sac outlet (like Carrion Feeder) and you can go nuts with Body Double, Reveillark, Mogg Fanatic, Indrik Stomphowler, Fulminator Mage, etc. You should be able to win through just about anything... Except the dreaded turn 0 Leyline of the Void, or if someone went before you and played Tormod's Crypt or (my favorite) Chrome Mox + Suppression Field.

Somehow I think the percentages for all this are pretty damn slim.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-14 10:55 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tarnar wrote:
Somehow I think the percentages for all this are pretty damn slim.


hrmm.. you might be right,..


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-17 8:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-11 4:51 pm
Age: Wyvern
My additions to the "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!" list are... Reveillark and Survival of the Fittest.

'Lark does the exact same thing to the game as Kokusho did, with the exception that Reveillark is an integral part to a slew of trivially assemblable infinite combos.

In virtually every game I have played with or against a deck that contained Reveillark, the game has degenerated to:

Step 1: Tutor/draw Reveillark
Step 2: Have a big fight over Reveillark
Step 3: Win.

If it is not exiled/hindered, you win the game. Even if it is, you probably win the game from the ridiculous advantage gained by it before it was removed. (or AS it was removed. What stupid card design.)

Survival of the Fittest is about the same. It's a sorcery for 1GGGGG that reads: At the beginning of your next turn, you win the game. If Survival of the Fittest leaves play, its okay because you have an infinite combo in the yard, and a Karmic Guide in hand.

Not to mention the fact that it makes every single game play out the same. This format is highlander. It is celebrated for being wacky, inconsistent, and fun. Not monotonous, cutthroat, and infuriating.

I'm okay with cards that cost 5RRR or 8UU or 5BBB and pretty much always win the game, even if they're NEVER fun for the rest of the table. If you have the balls to run mana costs like that, you deserve the prize when you can get there. But when the spells arer playable on turn 3 or 4 with reasonable acceleration? That doesn't even have the potential to be humourous. It's just a waste of everyone's time.

Please keep the format casual. Please keep the spirit of the highlander format.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-17 10:50 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-25 9:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
I've been playing 5 color with 10 duals/10 shocks and have no problems with a Titan resolving and leaving play. It's only truly devastating if you're in a dual which is another problem entirely. Its really a "fair" card compared to the Decree of Anihilation and Obliterate which allow for the player using it to set up with enchantments and planeswalkers that give them the win.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-18 12:23 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
Sundering Titan lost a good amount of its power ever since Tinker was banned.

Tinker was the real culprit with making Sundering Titan a feared card. Tinker provided a ridiculously easy way for the best color in EDH to cheat him into play at an absurdly low cost. Obviously there are still ways to cheat Titan into play, but they're not as easy as Tinker made it to be.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-18 1:04 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
I find the problem if one Titan gets cast in an EDH game you will probably see 4-6 triggers from it. It comes into play (1) it dies (2), someone reanimates it (3) owner bounces it (4), owner plays it (5), it dies (6), someone reanimates it (7)...

This gets worse when everyone has one in their deck not to mention some Briberies and Acquires.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-18 2:37 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Just like with Mindslaver, it's not the single Sundering Titan that's problematic, it's the multiples.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 7:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-11 10:50 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Philadelphia, PA
iceage4life wrote:
I find the problem if one Titan gets cast in an EDH game you will probably see 4-6 triggers from it. It comes into play (1) it dies (2), someone reanimates it (3) owner bounces it (4), owner plays it (5), it dies (6), someone reanimates it (7)...

This gets worse when everyone has one in their deck not to mention some Briberies and Acquires.


which was why we had to ban it in our store for all play.

Because after tinker got banned it went: master transmuter turn 3 turn 4 Titan lock. Or turn 1 entomb turn 3 reanimate Titan beat for the win. And with either academy ruins or volrath's stronghold it never stays dead if you don't have stp or path. and the point of events is to keep players having fun and coming back to play again, and very few people have fun when they can't play heir spells.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 8:37 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Darklantern wrote:
master transmuter turn 3 turn 4 Titan lock.


If someone's playing Turn 3 Transmuter, turn 4 Titan more than one game in ten, you need to ban players who cheat when shuffling. Alternately, players who have level 3 Entropy magic skills.

Quote:
if you don't have stp or path.


Or Withered Wretch, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Prog, Loaming Shaman, Repopulate, Faerie Macabre, Cemetery Reaper, Trinket Mage, Fabricate, Jund Charm, Return to Dust, Necrogensis, Yamabushi's Flame, or... Rysorian Badger. There might be some others. Most of which are worthy of playing in EDH even without sideboards... and if someone is playing recurring Titan combo, then the games are competitive enough that you should be using sideboards.

Or ban Titan... but don't pretend that it happens every game on turn 4, and don't be surprised when you have to ban every other 8 mana spell because it's powerful.

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