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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 3:58 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis, mox power doesn't raise above sol ring in EDH the more colors you play, its one slot to add one mana for free outside of a land drop once. Sol ring is one slot to add 2 mana for 1 outside of a land drop, as far as color fixing is concerned, it's more crucial at lower cmc's because of the number of lands you'll have in play when you cast things and the ratios in your mana base.

I play a ton of vintage and own full moxen. The reason moxen are so good in vintage is because vintage is fine-tuned an efficient. Its playing broken ritual engines (though not recently), bobs, goyfs, ancestral recalls, goblin welders, oath of druids, consistently. moxen cover 50-100% of the cost of these broken game breaking spells in a 60 card deck with 4 and/or amazing deck manipulation to ensure speed.
In EDH you're casting 5+ cc spells, a mox will cover 20-% of the cost of things in a 99 card deck. In a format where people often forgo artifact ramp for things like wood elves because of how frail it is, and honestly, things like wood elf tricks (I know I’ve used wood elf to pull all my land out of a deck in one turn). Moxen are not as ape shit in the format as most people think.
The $ reason for not allowing moxen is also pretty bullshit. People can already out wallet the 12 year old kid at the LGS if they want to without any help from moxen. Survival for primeval titan, then survival for avenger of zendikar timewarp with fow back up already does that just fine. As well as invoke prejudice on its own or mana drain your turn 5 dude into ulamog.

If moxen were legal in the format would play them? PROBABLY NOT. Would it be optimal, PROBABLY NOT IN ANYTHING PLAYING GREEN. But in R, W or, RW decks, yeah. Black decks, honestly probably not. They have a ton of mana doubling effects already.

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


Last edited by tide spout eliot on 2011-Apr-18 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 4:19 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tide spout eliot wrote:
. As well as invoke prejudice

DONT TOUCH MY PREJUDISMS!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 4:32 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
tide spout eliot wrote:
If moxen were legal in the format would play them? PROBABLY NOT. Would it be optimal, PROBABLY NOT IN ANYTHING PLAYING GREEN. But in r w or rw decks, yeah. Black decks, honestly probably not they have a ton of doubling effects.

If moxen were legal in the format I would absolutely play them. That they're nearly strictly better than basic lands (which I tend to run at least a moderate number of them) is reason enough. Not enough sweepers deal with artifacts, and if the whining about Ring/Crypt/Vault were any evidence, people don't run enough artifact destruction either.

But, I'll buy the rest of your points.

Outside balance issues, there's still the issues of scarcity. There are just not enough of them to go around. I know that there are a number of players on these boards who talk about how cost isn't a worthy criteria for banning, but I heartily disagree.

Outside scarcity, there is the issue of discouraging new players. Banning the cards people primarily identify with unattainability in MTG is a good thing. Had they been unbanned, I'm not sure I would have started playing EDH, or restarted playing magic at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 5:48 pm 
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Location: Canberra
American_Kid wrote:
the population that owns Moxen far outnumber those who don't.

Oh really?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:37 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
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Sinis wrote:
tide spout eliot wrote:
If moxen were legal in the format would play them? PROBABLY NOT. Would it be optimal, PROBABLY NOT IN ANYTHING PLAYING GREEN. But in r w or rw decks, yeah. Black decks, honestly probably not they have a ton of doubling effects.

If moxen were legal in the format I would absolutely play them. That they're nearly strictly better than basic lands (which I tend to run at least a moderate number of them) is reason enough. Not enough sweepers deal with artifacts, and if the whining about Ring/Crypt/Vault were any evidence, people don't run enough artifact destruction either.

But, I'll buy the rest of your points.

Outside balance issues, there's still the issues of scarcity. There are just not enough of them to go around. I know that there are a number of players on these boards who talk about how cost isn't a worthy criteria for banning, but I heartily disagree.

Outside scarcity, there is the issue of discouraging new players. Banning the cards people primarily identify with unattainability in MTG is a good thing. Had they been unbanned, I'm not sure I would have started playing EDH, or restarted playing magic at all.


I really think the bolded part isn’t very true; you can use the slot for a much bigger effect on your mana base. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how efficient your play is if it just isn’t high powered enough. I wouldn’t play emerald over cultivate, k’s reach, or explosive vegetation. Is more mana and fixes across more colors without being shattered.
As far as the issues about the amount of power. I have this discussion with dealers all the time. It comes up when you play a lot of vintage. There’s tons of it out there and the number is only getting higher with really good fakes, slightly but yeah still up. The MIA power is going to stay uncirculated and people generally destroying hundreds of dollars of their own money (well not in that way anyways). Most of it is across the pond but we definitely have enough here in the US and edh won’t increase the demand anyways.
Discouraging new players isn’t much of an issue for EDH as I see it. Either you buy into the self-regulated play group thing or it’s already very easy to price people out and make them sad and not play.
As far as most things are concerned, I don’t think banning the perceivable unattainable is a good thing, then people just settle for mediocrity.
I remember thinking power would likely never be obtainable, but after some trading and taking down some events I made it happen.

Onlainari, I believe that quote has already been retracted by the OP.

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 11:07 pm 
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Location: Canberra
tide spout eliot wrote:
Onlainari, I believe that quote has already been retracted by the OP.

American Kid hasn't posted since he said it. I know it's a typo though.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 1:09 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-13 2:53 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Sinis wrote:
That they're nearly strictly better than basic lands (which I tend to run at least a moderate number of them) is reason enough.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for this. It seems to me that there are far more cards that destroy or steal nonland permanents and even nonbasic lands than there are that destroy/steal basic lands. Plus, I rarely see basic land hate in EDH. If lands are getting destroyed, there's a good chance your manafacts are already long dead.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 1:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I would love for the moxen to come back. But it is unrealistic. The RC is just never going to let that happen. The answer, of course, is to ask your group, if they are cool with it. Or start a No-ban EDH group. Try it and see. Proxy up a set and let rip. Then share your RL experiences, instead of basing it all on supposition.

Oh yeah... and someone in the group isn't allowed to have moxen.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 3:54 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
If for some crazy reason the Moxen were unbanned, I probably would slowly go out of my way and get some. Not NM/Mint versions though, anything above "bent" would be useful. No reason to spend that much money on cardboard that will be "abused" by using it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 5:34 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spammeister wrote:
If for some crazy reason the Moxen were unbanned, I probably would slowly go out of my way and get some. Not NM/Mint versions though, anything above "bent" would be useful. No reason to spend that much money on cardboard that will be "abused" by using it.


Me three! :-D And then I'd commision Yawg07 to do something real cool on them!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 6:16 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
tide spout eliot wrote:
Sometimes it doesn’t matter how efficient your play is if it just isn’t high powered enough. I wouldn’t play emerald over cultivate, k’s reach, or explosive vegetation.
Foolish boy. Forgive him, he knows not of what he speaks.

Quote:
and edh won’t increase the demand anyways.
O rly?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 6:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tide spout eliot wrote:
you can use the slot for a much bigger effect on your mana base.


Except it wouldn't replace a card like that, it would replace a basic land. While their might be some 5-colour decks that don't run basic lands, almost all other decks run a few, and a mox can adequately replace a basic land. Your decks would go from having, say, 15 basic lands and 20 other lands to having 13 basic lands, 20 other lands, and 2 moxes (for a 2-colour deck.)

tide spout eliot wrote:
There’s tons of it out there and the number is only getting higher with really good fakes, slightly but yeah still up.


I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that unbanning moxes would be ok because I can get really good fakes to commit fraud against my opponent's? Having to resort to cheating doesn't sound like a good reason to do much of anything.

Mooney wrote:
It seems to me that there are far more cards that destroy or steal nonland permanents and even nonbasic lands than there are that destroy/steal basic lands.


That would be why he said "nearly strictly better". While they are certainly more things that can be done to artifacts than lands, those affects generally have to be used early, otherwise the opponent will have better things to do with his mana and his time than destroying your mana artifacts (and there is way less point to destroy a mox on turn 6+). The large tempo boost you can get from a mox is quite impressive, especially in a three-colour deck, which is more likely to drop one in the first three turns of the game compared to a mono-colour deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 8:42 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Tremor wrote:
tide spout eliot wrote:
Sometimes it doesn’t matter how efficient your play is if it just isn’t high powered enough. I wouldn’t play emerald over cultivate, k’s reach, or explosive vegetation.
Foolish boy. Forgive him, he knows not of what he speaks.

Quote:
and edh won’t increase the demand anyways.
O rly?


I noticed you didn't give any sort of reason beside telling me i dont know what im talking about my responce will be similar: You're an idiot.

If you want to be taken seriously and have a mature conversation. Develop some reasoning and data. Feel free to use numbers like did. Other wise we will continue the exchanges of "no, you're stupid." the burden is on you champ.

Sometimes raw power is just more Important for the reasons I stated above, and the examples stated above.

And no demand won't increase by a relevant amount, because people won't typically drop that kind of cash on a sub optimal use of space in the format.

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 9:20 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't think people understand WHY moxen are better the a basic land in most formats.
The fact that they're easier to kill then a basic land is more then made up for by the fact that your relevant spells now come down on turn 1-2 instead of 3-4.

In commander, most relevant spells cost at LEAST 5, and many times MORE then that. Casting a 5 drop on turn 4 is not NEARLY as powerful as a two drop on turn 1.
Secondly, most formats don't have lots of mass permanent removal going around. Commander, however, does. So not only are moxen less efficient at what they do in commander, but they're also much more vulnerable.
If people are trying to say that cards that kill basic lands are seeing more play then artifact removal in their playgroups... well, I'm pretty sure those playgroups are so far gone that they can't be saved anyway.

In ONE 4-player game last weekend the following were cast, that would have killed moxen simply by accident. This is not counting any targeted removal.
Austere Command
Furnace Dragon
Akroma's Vengeance
Oblivion Stone x2
World Queller
Karn, Silver Golem (1: Kill target mox)
Pernicous Deed
Necroplasm

As opposed to the following that kill basic lands:
Strip Mine
Desolation Angel

Hmmm... I wonder what's more vulnerable? Not to mention, most playgroups frown on basic land removal to begin with... But I'm pretty sure no one would bat an eye at killing a mox, just for the sadistic pleasure. ;)
In the end, being vulnerable is much more importtant in commander then it is in other formats, and the speed is less important. Frankly, getting an early start seems great, but then it's usually you who gets ganged up on until that early start has been neutralized.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 9:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So Kaldare, you won't mind then if we remove any Sol Ring or Mana Crypt from your deck(s)? Because, I mean, they are all just as easily destructible in your meta. No one would barely even notice if we gouged them out of your deck and replaced with them with basic lands? Least of all you. Right?

Come to think of it, why play with mana rocks at all? It's all just junk lying on the table waiting to get its teeth kicked in by some esoteric Jokulhaups, oops, I meant shatterstorm.


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