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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-21 5:53 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spekter wrote:
It's simply antisocial to play prohibitively expensive cards against one's opponents.

That's not true. I only say this because, as one who has most of the expensive cards, I checked with the people locally about instituting a rule that any card over $X we would locally ban. I proposed it because I felt that playing cards like Workshop seemed excessive for what we all wanted as a fun & casual format.

Turns out that nobody cared.

Nobody cared that I played with cards like Workshop - the value of the card didn't matter to them, and they didn't care that they couldn't afford to play with such cards. And generally, none of us use proxies, so it's not like they would just proxy up cards to 'fight-fire-with-fire'.

So, if your opponents don't care about it - how can it be antisocial?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-21 1:52 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Well... this thread got popular. :D

Where to start?
Well, first of all, if you're playing a dedicated combo deck, then yes, moxen obviously make it better. Who cares? It's been clearly stated that things are not banned in this format for that, because if that's the kind of deck someone wants to make, NOTHING will stop them short of a banned list the size of novel. (This is the reason Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Etc aren't banned.) Since none of us want that banned list, can we please admit that hardcore combo decks are irrelevant in this discussion?

Next... I currently have 7 EDH decks that I've spent ALOT of time (and yes, money) fine tuning. I also have 3 of the aformentioned hardcore combo decks... but those are more example decks to show people how unfun commander can be if everyone focuses TOO much on raw power.

Of the 7 decks, 5 run Sol Ring, and 3 run mana crypt. If moxen were legal, and I somehow acquired some, I'd play them in prolly 4 of my decks. Crypt just isn't worth the price of damage in the more controlish decks, and all of them get nuked by my own mass removal too often in a couple of the decks.

As for $, everywhere I've been, the reaction to people playing expensive cards has been far more positive then negative. As in, "Cool, I've never seen a Bazaar of Baghdad before!"

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-21 5:26 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
No.

Competitive edh IS a factor in ban decisions, go read the ban announcements for some cards if you don't believe me.

Sol ring and mana crypt are legal while the moxen are not because of the difference in price/scarcity.

It's been said a few times in this thread, by me and several other people. Scarcity/price AND ubiquity = bannable. Not just one or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-21 7:35 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
Well, first of all, if you're playing a dedicated combo deck, then yes, moxen obviously make it better. Who cares? It's been clearly stated that things are not banned in this format for that


Not quite sure how you can say this. There are a ton of cards on the existing banned list that are there because they would be parts of dedicated combo decks. Another large section of cards are banned because they represent powerful, fast mana. A great use of powerful, fast mana is to enable dedicated combo decks, although certainly that level of mana can be used in many places.

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Cheethorne


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 7:03 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cheethorne wrote:
Not quite sure how you can say this. There are a ton of cards on the existing banned list that are there because they would be parts of dedicated combo decks. Another large section of cards are banned because they represent powerful, fast mana. A great use of powerful, fast mana is to enable dedicated combo decks, although certainly that level of mana can be used in many places.


No... whether or not they can be parts of dedicated combo decks has very little to do with it, at least if you read both the announcements, and the SCG articles explaining them. Cards that are banned these days fall into two categories:
1. They pretty much always warp games around them in a bad way, despite SEEMING fun. (Ex. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Koko)
2. They're "Unintentionally" broken. This means they're used in decks intending to play "fair"... but slowly warp said decks into focusing on them, little by little, by sheer power. (Ex. Tolarian Academy)

Now, there are two other reasons for cards being banned, but these pretty much just apply to cards that have been banned for years... They haven't banned anything for either of these reasons for quite some time.
3. They would ONLY be used as parts of dedicated combo decks. The key word is "ONLY."
4. Cost/Ubiquity

So...
1. Moxen certainly don't warp games.
2. Nor do they encourage player to warp decks around them.
3. They'd be used outside of combo as well as in it.

Which leaves 4... which is what I started this thread to argue about.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 7:16 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-04 2:03 pm
Age: Drake
Then in response to that, there is no way that unbanning Moxen would result in them being available for EDH. Just look at GOP and other cards like that. You see 50 cent rares jump up to 5 or 6 dollars because of the demand EDH players have for them. That's a card that works best in mono colored, and there are a good number of them moving about. How expensive do you think Moxen would be if they were EDH legal and every player suddenly wanted multiples for decks?

The prices would steadily go up and up, as players with rising income levels bought them until they are only available to the wealthiest players, and if you didn't get them before they skyrocketed, you would be SOL. This will create an immense barrier for entry to many new players, who would believe that they would need large amounts of money to make decks like everyone else. I'm not saying that EDH is not expensive to build, OR that it is impossible to win with budget decks, just that right now, a 3 color deck doesn't have to consider spending WELL over $1000 on mana rocks that essentially, are an auto include. If every EDH player wanted Moxen, I would not be surprised to see them all reach, if not exceed, the cost of Lotus.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 8:46 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Cthulus Thrall wrote:
The prices would steadily go up and up, as players with rising income levels bought them until they are only available to the wealthiest players, and if you didn't get them before they skyrocketed, you would be SOL. This will create an immense barrier for entry to many new players, who would believe that they would need large amounts of money to make decks like everyone else. I'm not saying that EDH is not expensive to build, OR that it is impossible to win with budget decks, just that right now, a 3 color deck doesn't have to consider spending WELL over $1000 on mana rocks that essentially, are an auto include. If every EDH player wanted Moxen, I would not be surprised to see them all reach, if not exceed, the cost of Lotus.


That's chicken little logic with no proof whatsoever behind it. Yes, commander has SOME impact on prices. But the more expensive a card is, the LESS impact it seems to have. The cards that would be $1-$2, yes, they might jump to $4-$5. Cards that are $90? Whoop, they jump to $100. For examples, see Mana Drain. Consistently about $100 for the last 5 years... less if you're willing to buy foreign. This despite it's power in EDH. And yes, it's VERY powerful. I'd MUCH rather have it in my blue deck then a Mox Sapphire.

EDIT: The exception is cards that lack any demand whatsoever outside of EDH AKA random P3K cards that aren't playable in legacy. Moxen don't fall into this category.

As for the so-called "immense barrier for entry to many new players", that's hogwash. Heck, fully half the players I've played with can barely afford a couple $20 cards... they're certainly not gonna have everything you or I would consider an "Auto-Include." People seem to have this opinion that moxen are magical creatures that automatically scare away new players, despite having no proof of this whatsoever.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 10:18 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-04 2:03 pm
Age: Drake
Except that in the past 6-12 months, Mana Drain has seen a $50 increase in price.... From $80 to $130. That is over a 50 percent price increase. Gauntlet of Power jumped over 500 percent.

it is kind of silly to say that EDH has no effect on the secondary market value of cards. There are a LOT of EDH players now, and when artifacts or lands are needed by everyone, their prices go up. Wastelands have seen an enormous increase recently. Is that because all of a sudden in Vintage you need to destroy non basics when you ignored them before? I hardly believe that Wastelands were not desired by every Vintage/Legacy player to begin with. I played when they were standard. they were incredibly popular, and we had a hard time getting many playsets. Not long ago, they were about 40 bucks each. Now, it's hard to find them for under 70. I truly believe EDH had a lot to do with that. EDH seems to be getting a bit more competitive overall, and "any-deck" cards are going to be more expensive to get your hands on in the future.

As for this "argument" that Moxes are not that good: I can bullshit in that. As was mentioned earlier, IF you drop an island and Sapphire on turn 1, your opponent(s) have to deal with counter threat from turn one. It is acceleration with NO MANA COST. It is COLORED acceleration for no cost. Why would you not play them? Because of artifact sweepers? You should be getting value from them before they hit the yard.

Anyway, this argument is being held in two different threads now, and what it will always come down to is the fact that they are indeed something that the vast, vast majority, if not everyone will want to play in their decks, and their cost makes them prohibitive to acquire. To help maintain a casual format, it is best if we just leave them banned. I do think it is humorous that most of the people arguing to get them unbanned are saying they wouldn't even play them in decks, while I would play them in every deck, in every color, and I want them to keep being forbidden... If you don't think they are that good, and you wouldn't play them, why does it matter if they are banned or not? :P


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 11:33 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
SCG has Mana Drain for $99.99
6 months ago, when I bought mine, it was $89.99. That's a ~11% increase.

Anyway, we all know they're only ONE reason moxen are banned. The "If I can't use it, no one can!" principle. That's it. That's the only real reason. And it's far too childish an argument to be taken seriously.

Anyway, as to WHY I, personally, want Moxes unbanned? Because I actually know alot of people who own them. These are people who have played on and off for years... You try explaining why Curtis can play Mishra's Workshop($350) and Moat($280) in his deck, but he can't play Mox Emerald? ($320)
I can't say price, since Workshop is more expensive. I can't say power, because workshop is at least as powerful too. So what? We all know the reason is that many commander players already bought workshops, so banning it now will NEVER happen. But because moxen were always banned, they never got those and have no reason to fight for them. And I'm right back to the "If I can't use it, no one can!" principle. *Sigh*

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 11:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's that the rules committee hasn't taken the time to be consistent and honest with themselves, that's all. It's not that Moxen should be unbanned, it's that Workshop, Bazaar, Tabernacle, Moat, etc. should be banned. I think Mana Drain and Force of Will should too, but I'm sure I'd have a lot fewer people agreeing with me there. Cards that provide unparalleled advantages compared to cheaper alternatives have no place in the format.

Strip Mine only costing $6-8 is one of the few things that makes Wasteland's outrageous price more palatable. But if you want to say that your Mana Drain or Force of Will is anywhere near the power level of budget counterspells, you're just being dishonest.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 1:22 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Spekter wrote:
Cards that provide unparalleled advantages compared to cheaper alternatives have no place in the format.


So, should dual lands be banned then too? They provide unparalleled advantages... what about the P3K cards that cost $50+ and have NO alternates. Should they be banned? What's the cutoff point? $100? $50? $20?

What about when these banning changes the meta, and OTHER cards start shooting up? Ban those too? What about when the bannings cause the price of the banned card to shoot DOWN? You can't unban them... the price would shoot right back up... but you have no justification for the ban anymore either. Plus, you have a banned list the size of a novel.

The above situation highlights why bannings based on cost can NEVER be consistent. The ideal solution is to simply ban the cards the warp the game and leave budgetary issues to the players.... Which is what the RC has been doing for the last few years. As far as I can tell, and I researched it as much as I could, NOTHING has been banned based on cost since the inception of the banned list.

The only path to consistency is to get rid of the relics of past times and ditch the bannings based on price altogether.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 5:27 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
IMO, the only way to tell really if the EDH playerbase can actually affect the price of a card is to ban or unban something that is of moderate value (like say Wasteland or Lion's Eye Diamond) that would fit into almost any deck.

I know it's a horrible way to game the system but I'd think it's the only way to put to rest that particular aspect of the debate.

Let's get really zany and unban a random moxen every month for just a month and see what happens. Yes, I'm a armchair anarchist :twisted:

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More money than brains! I'm an Ash Ketchum of M:tG.
Scion, the 600$ Ur-Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 6:16 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-03 3:54 pm
Age: Drake
Cthulus Thrall wrote:
it is kind of silly to say that EDH has no effect on the secondary market value of cards. There are a LOT of EDH players now, and when artifacts or lands are needed by everyone, their prices go up. Wastelands have seen an enormous increase recently. Is that because all of a sudden in Vintage you need to destroy non basics when you ignored them before? I hardly believe that Wastelands were not desired by every Vintage/Legacy player to begin with. I played when they were standard. they were incredibly popular, and we had a hard time getting many playsets. Not long ago, they were about 40 bucks each. Now, it's hard to find them for under 70. I truly believe EDH had a lot to do with that. EDH seems to be getting a bit more competitive overall, and "any-deck" cards are going to be more expensive to get your hands on in the future.

I suppose the Star City 5k events have nothing to do with price increases?
Or that Star City is attempting to control the market?

Maybe the 2011 GP Providence next month is irrelevant?
Or the GP Trials (I'm playing in one tomorrow)?
Or 2011 GP Amsterdam in October?


The Legacy format is the healthiest sanctioned format at the moment (except entry costs), and by far the strongest influence in non-Standard secondary market prices. Vintage comes in second for price influence.

Does Commander have an impact on card values? Yes.
Is this even close to eternal sanctioned formats? No.

Cthulus Thrall wrote:
As for this "argument" that Moxes are not that good: I can bullshit in that. As was mentioned earlier, IF you drop an island and Sapphire on turn 1, your opponent(s) have to deal with counter threat from turn one. It is acceleration with NO MANA COST. It is COLORED acceleration for no cost. Why would you not play them? Because of artifact sweepers? You should be getting value from them before they hit the yard.

Sol Ring is a far more powerful accelerator than any of the moxen. Mana Crypt is at least as strong as the ring. These are easily two of the five most powerful cards ever printed for M:tG.

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Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-22 10:20 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
kaldare wrote:
Spekter wrote:
Cards that provide unparalleled advantages compared to cheaper alternatives have no place in the format.


So, should dual lands be banned then too? They provide unparalleled advantages... what about the P3K cards that cost $50+ and have NO alternates. Should they be banned? What's the cutoff point? $100? $50? $20?

What about when these banning changes the meta, and OTHER cards start shooting up? Ban those too? What about when the bannings cause the price of the banned card to shoot DOWN? You can't unban them... the price would shoot right back up... but you have no justification for the ban anymore either. Plus, you have a banned list the size of a novel.

The above situation highlights why bannings based on cost can NEVER be consistent. The ideal solution is to simply ban the cards the warp the game and leave budgetary issues to the players.... Which is what the RC has been doing for the last few years. As far as I can tell, and I researched it as much as I could, NOTHING has been banned based on cost since the inception of the banned list.

The only path to consistency is to get rid of the relics of past times and ditch the bannings based on price altogether.


This exactly. Banning cards based on cost was, is, and always will be the heart of the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-23 8:14 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
Sigh...nearly this whole page of this thread is posts asking questions or making points that were already answered. Like...answered on the FIRST PAGE of the thread.

Moxen (and library) aren't banned for being expensive/difficult to obtain, or for being overpowered. They're banned for being difficult to obtain AND ubiquitous. Other cards (like workshop and tabernacle) have risen in price to near-moxen level, but they aren't ubiquitous. Other cards are ubiquitous (like sol ring and SDT) but don't cost hundreds of dollars. BOTH factors constitute ban-consideration, not just one or the other.

EDH DOES affect the secondary market. You don't need a legal-mox test-run to prove it (and it wouldn't prove anything anyway...would you go out and spend $300+ per mox for your EDH decks knowing they'll probably just get re-banned at the end of the trial? I wouldn't.)

Instead, you can just look at some P3K rares like xiahou dunn, who is out of stock at SCG at $129.99. He's a pretty sweet general for monoblack EDH decks (arguably, the sweetest), but I've never seen him used in any other format. That price is almost purely the result of the EDH playerbase wanting a scarce old card.

Even Burning of Xinye and Capture of Jingzhou are excellent proof of EDH creating demand for cards. They're identical in effect to other cards (wildfire and time warp, respectively) that aren't getting played in other eternal formats. But because EDH's singleton restriction makes redundancy desireable, and they are scarce, their prices are very high ($60 and $70, respectively). Most P3K rares are about $5-$6.

So yes, EDH does have a very noticeable effect on the secondary market - meaning yes, moxen would cost more if we created additional demand for them by legalizing them in EDH. Don't even try to disagree with this - it's not an opinion - it's a fact and arguing against it just weakens your position by associating it with stupidity.

And no, moxen will not be legalized. They are expensive, and they would be ubiquitous if legal, and that combination has been determined to be a valid reason to ban a card by the RC.


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