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 Post subject: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 2:44 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Maybe not... but the time will soon some when there isn't any justification for them being banned.
Their prices have been steadily DROPPING for awhile now. (You can get a played emerald for ~$200) while the prices of many of the more expensive EDH staples have seen marked increases. (SoFaI, FoW, Duals, Mana Crypt, Random P3K stuff).
The ban is barely justifiable as it stands now. What happens when underground sea costs more then a mox? And that day IS coming, unless WoTC does something drastic. Vintage is dead, people.

Anyway, this is less a "Unban them now!!" thread, and more a "What would it take to force the issue?" thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 2:49 pm 
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I don't believe the price of the cards is a strong position to be arguing banning/unbanning.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 2:56 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
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Location: Denver, CO
I don't see any reason to believe that EDH would be a better format if the moxen were unbanned.

There is no other justification needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 3:11 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
They are less powerful then sol ring,why not
Plus i thought the major reason power 9 is banned cuz it cost so much

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 3:55 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kirby wrote:
They are less powerful then sol ring,why not
Plus i thought the major reason power 9 is banned cuz it cost so much

Lotus, Moxen (and LoA) all all ostensibly banned because of both ubiquity + cost.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 4:10 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
The difference in performance between a deck that can't afford underground sea and has to use a cheaper substitute (say, underground river), and one that can't afford mox sapphire and has to use a cheaper substitute (island) is pretty big. Moxen are a much bigger step up from a land than a true dual is from another 2-color mana fixing land.

Also, if I have a 2 color deck, I only need 1 original dual land, but I need 2 moxen. In a monocolor deck I can't use any duals (but would still want a mox). Moxing up 1 and 2 color decks would still cost more than dualling them up, even if they were the same price.

Keep in mind too, that the reason moxen are dropping in price is that so few people want them. The vintage playerbase is small, and many vintage tournaments allow proxies. The EDH playerbase is rather large and if you cause them all to suddenly want moxen, the price is going to soar. If you doubt the EDH community's ability to influence the price of scarce old cards, you need look no further than xiahou dun.

So in a nutshell, even if moxen dropped below 50$ they would not be safe to unban.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 6:18 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
It won't happen in the near future, I don't see it happening if the far distant future either.

So now Underground Seas cost you $200, if that wasn't expensive enough, now you need Mox Jet/Sapphire. Nice empty pockets!

The only card I'd like to see come off the list has already been discussed in god aweful length, i.e. Library of Alexandria.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 6:19 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Just for those that didn't realise, here is the unwritten rule for moxen:

You own one irl, you can put it in your deck. Otherwise, it's banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 6:22 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I'd like them to remain banned even though I don't have a particularly good reason.

I guess my reasons are:
1. Availability.
2. Cost (/shies away from the torches and pitchforks)
3. Consolidated effects with artifact mana acceleration which is already arguably ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 6:43 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
How is black Lotus good in edh?
it sucks unless you got some infi mana combo,but is there another one other then the leion guy?
The mox are on the power level of sol ring/mana cyrpt, the only thing keeping it banned is the price
i don't see how mox mox is better then turn one crypt sol ring

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Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 6:59 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Kirby wrote:
How is black Lotus good in edh?
it sucks unless you got some infi mana combo,but is there another one other then the leion guy?
The mox are on the power level of sol ring/mana cyrpt, the only thing keeping it banned is the price
i don't see how mox mox is better then turn one crypt sol ring

You should probably champion unbanning lion's eye diamond before black lotus, yeah?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 7:15 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:
Kirby wrote:
How is black Lotus good in edh?
it sucks unless you got some infi mana combo,but is there another one other then the leion guy?
The mox are on the power level of sol ring/mana cyrpt, the only thing keeping it banned is the price
i don't see how mox mox is better then turn one crypt sol ring

You should probably champion unbanning lion's eye diamond before black lotus, yeah?

I'm seriously wondering why black lotus is ban,other then it's a grand

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A real man's dragon deck
Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 7:24 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Kirby wrote:
onlainari wrote:
Kirby wrote:
How is black Lotus good in edh?
it sucks unless you got some infi mana combo,but is there another one other then the leion guy?
The mox are on the power level of sol ring/mana cyrpt, the only thing keeping it banned is the price
i don't see how mox mox is better then turn one crypt sol ring

You should probably champion unbanning lion's eye diamond before black lotus, yeah?

I'm seriously wondering why black lotus is ban,other then it's a grand

1. It's not a casual card.
2. Casting 4 mana generals turn 1 isn't cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 7:45 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
Maybe not... but the time will soon some when there isn't any justification for them being banned.
Their prices have been steadily DROPPING for awhile now. (You can get a played emerald for ~$200) while the prices of many of the more expensive EDH staples have seen marked increases. (SoFaI, FoW, Duals, Mana Crypt, Random P3K stuff).
The ban is barely justifiable as it stands now. What happens when underground sea costs more then a mox? And that day IS coming, unless WoTC does something drastic. Vintage is dead, people.


A staple is a card that gets put in every deck (of that color). The only REAL staples are Sol Ring, Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Top. FoW is a staple for Ux decks, SoFI isn't by far a staple: Lightning Greaves comes alot closer in the equipment department. Mana Crypt is unplayable in all but hardcore combo, and I can't think of a single P3K card that is widely played, let alone a staple.

This leaves us with duals. If we make the comparison you do (the highest priced NM dual compared to the lowest priced mox in a played condition) I still see the mox being worth over 2.5-3 times as much if I look at ebay selling prices.

kaldare wrote:
Anyway, this is less a "Unban them now!!" thread, and more a "What would it take to force the issue?" thread.


so it's a I-know-I-can't-make-it-happen-straight-away-so-I-want-to-start-a-discussion-to-make-it-happen-in-the-future-thread? How is that different?


Overall, I'd say it's nice that you think about cards that are on the banned list. It's never a bad idea to re-evaluate it. [sarcasm]But I cannot see any reason so far to change it in a way your claiming not to want to happen but only want to discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 8:02 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
24x30cl wrote:
FoW is a staple for Ux decks

Bye bye credibility.

Kaldare wrote:
FoW

My apologies 24x30cl. I'm confused. Which of you two believe FoW is an EDH staple, and which of you guys realises it's just a Legacy card?

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