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 Post subject: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-31 2:00 pm 
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One thing I've been wondering for awhile is making a four color EDHC deck (I just say Elder Dragon High-Commander to compromise between the two names), and while I can play four colors with a Five Color General with a little room to summon my general, I'd think it'd be interesting if a player could pick a four color general.

Problem: there are no four color legendary creatures... in fact, there are only five four-colored cards in the entire games: the Nephilim creatures released in Guildpact back in 2006. They are Dune-Brood Nephilim, Glint-Eye Nephilim, Ink-Treader Nephilim, Witch-Maw Nephilim, and Yore-Tiller Nephilim.

While personally, I'm fine with only playing four colors with a five color general or having an agreement ahead of time that I can play a Nephilim General with my group for casual play, for the sake of discussion, I was curious what posters think if the General Rule said, "The Commander must be a Legendary Creature or a Nephilim Creature-type card" so that Four color EDHC decks could be possible. I checked, and the five four-colored Nephilims are the only Nephilims in the entire game, and probably will be for a long time. The rule could be axed if/when there are printed four color legends (considering this game will be around for a long time, I'll bet Wizards will do it for the heck of it... eventually), but I thought I'd bring it up just for feedback purposes on making four-colored EDHC decks possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-31 3:34 pm 
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Mockingbird wrote:
I was curious what posters think if the General Rule said, "The Commander must be a Legendary Creature or a Nephilim Creature-type card" so that Four color EDHC decks could be possible.


My opinion is: No, the rule shouldn't be changed.

However, I seriously feel your pain. I have two decks under construction that would be four colors, but because of there not being any 4-colored legendary creatures, I'm stuck with playing Horde of Notions and pretending the fifth color doesn't exist. There may be some light at the end though. Next year, WotC is peddling the Commander products which include some brand new, multiplayer-oriented cards (including new legendary creatures). Hopefully they'll make something decent and four colored, but we'll hafta wait and see...

I've heard rumors that some of the folks from MtG's R&D Dept. sometimes frequent these forums. If you ARE one of these people, I hope you are taking a hint :?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-31 4:03 pm 

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Contact some upper WotC people and convince them to make these 4 color generals legendary

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-31 6:17 pm 
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Majus wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
I was curious what posters think if the General Rule said, "The Commander must be a Legendary Creature or a Nephilim Creature-type card" so that Four color EDHC decks could be possible.
My opinion is: No, the rule shouldn't be changed.

For the most part I am of the same mind. If a specific creature type is allowed, then there'll be people who flood with requests on why other Creature Types can't be legal (I shudder at the thought of somebody saying Giants should be allowed as Generals), but it'd be something I want to try because Five Colors is a stretch outside of slivers, and sometimes I just want to play Green with my other three colors.


Majus wrote:
However, I seriously feel your pain. I have two decks under construction that would be four colors, but because of there not being any 4-colored legendary creatures, I'm stuck with playing Horde of Notions and pretending the fifth color doesn't exist. There may be some light at the end though. Next year, WotC is peddling the Commander products which include some brand new, multiplayer-oriented cards (including new legendary creatures). Hopefully they'll make something decent and four colored, but we'll hafta wait and see...


I know about the Commander peddling by Wizards of the Coast, but I've heard that they're peddling the Wedge Colors, which need more legends than the Chaos Planar Dragons, so I doubt four colored legends, but it is possible

Majus wrote:
I've heard rumors that some of the folks from MtG's R&D Dept. sometimes frequent these forums. If you ARE one of these people, I hope you are taking a hint :?

Sorry, I'm just a random new user who likes playing multicolored decks. But they'll hopefully include some in the near future.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 2:03 am 
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Mockingbird wrote:
"The Commander must be a Legendary Creature or a Nephilim Creature-type card"

It would be interesting to see Nameless Inversion / Crib Swap / Shapesharer / Mirror Entity / Cairn Wanderer as someone's general. That's some serious build-around-me potential right there.

But seriously, this rule is never going to change this way. It could, but it won't. I'm sure you're aware how long it took for Memnarch to become a legal general, and that was just the rules being changed to how they always should have been. This proposed rules change would only further complicate the RC's beloved set of rules and detract from the flavor of EDH for very little gain, and is really no different from the Karakas errata rule that you won't find on the rules page today. I'm pretty sure all you're getting out of this thread is "Yeah, 4c generals would be cool. We sure hope they'll print some of those in the future."


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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 4:12 am 
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There's a handful of 5 colour genmanders to pick from; just ignore one colour?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 7:37 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Contact some upper WotC people and convince them to make these 4 color generals legendary


Been there, been doing that for like 5 years. They've tried and have been displeased with the results. Seems like every 4-color legend is a 5-color one in disguise.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 9:05 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
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Sheldon wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Contact some upper WotC people and convince them to make these 4 color generals legendary


Been there, been doing that for like 5 years. They've tried and have been displeased with the results. Seems like every 4-color legend is a 5-color one in disguise.


The problem is, even though the Nephilims are insanely cool, they're only cool because they're 4 colors. They do however a pretty bad job at representing the colors they are. This is because there is always some overlap in the color pie. You can only really create something that is everything but blue if you can define what blue has that no other color has.

Dune-Brood Nephilim - probably the best Nephilim colorwise, blue is the worst color at making tokens.
Glint-Eye Nephilim card draw for attacking creature used to be blue, now is green. Discarding a card for extra power seems black and red. Still it seems a little "engineered" and not natural.
Ink-Treader Nephilim Should been black instead of white and green. Has a color to much imo
Witch-Maw Nephilim We've had an elf with this ability, and you could say that it's a little black (feeding of the energy of your spells), or white (growing in power with you), but little blue. It's second ability is clearly pure green.
Yore-Tiller Nephilim Blue not green? Really?

I like how the last 3 Nephilim have flavor text that mirror the color they're not.


On topic:
This seems like a clear case for house rules: The official rules would get way to clunky if we did this, and since all Nephilims have a power level comparable to that of Cho-Manno, there isn't a large chance many players would oppose you playing them.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 11:01 am 
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Mockingbird wrote:
Sorry, I'm just a random new user who likes playing multicolored decks.


Ha! You misunderstood. I was directing that towards any R&D person who happened to read this thread. Wasn't implying that you you are part of the R&D :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 10:41 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-19 1:58 pm
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Solution: Plick your four colors, then play Reaper King as general, playing him for six mana.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-01 11:38 pm 
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Filth wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
"The Commander must be a Legendary Creature or a Nephilim Creature-type card"

It would be interesting to see Nameless Inversion / Crib Swap / Shapesharer / Mirror Entity / Cairn Wanderer as someone's general. That's some serious build-around-me potential right there.

But seriously, this rule is never going to change this way. It could, but it won't. I'm sure you're aware how long it took for Memnarch to become a legal general, and that was just the rules being changed to how they always should have been. This proposed rules change would only further complicate the RC's beloved set of rules and detract from the flavor of EDH for very little gain, and is really no different from the Karakas errata rule that you won't find on the rules page today. I'm pretty sure all you're getting out of this thread is "Yeah, 4c generals would be cool. We sure hope they'll print some of those in the future."

I was wondering when someone was going to point out a glaring loophole in my proposal that'd I'd inevitably would miss; I just knew that it'd be too simple to just suggest Nephilims are good to go.

While I'm not aware of how long it took Memnarch to become a legal general, I know that it's at least years because EDHC has been around a lot longer than the announcement to change the mana rules. But the primary point of making a rules discussion thread is to keep the reminder alive. Change isn't spontaneous, it's a long journey of little reminders... you know so that one day, when one of those Wizard's employees drops by these boards, they'll see that they should keep working on fleshing out potential four color legends... or the rules committee caves.
I'm not betting on the latter though.


Daf wrote:
There's a handful of 5 colour genmanders to pick from; just ignore one colour?

The problem with that is that you still want to play your general. What's the point in running a five color deck if you're not going to include a way to cast it from the general zone. So at the least, you have to have a mana base that invests in all five colors and cast cards that only take advantage of four of them. Possible, but it's kind of annoying. Although that Reaper King suggestion might work.


Sheldon wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Contact some upper WotC people and convince them to make these 4 color generals legendary


Been there, been doing that for like 5 years. They've tried and have been displeased with the results. Seems like every 4-color legend is a 5-color one in disguise.
Yeah... I kind guessed there's something behind the scenes... even looking at the comments 24x30cl, I can see where the colors in some of them are a little forced or are should've-could've kinds of situations, although I never noticed the irony of most of their flavor texts focusing on their missing colors. Oh well, hopefully one of these days Wizards of the Coast will have a "Eureka!" moment or use the argument that it only appears to be five colors... the apparent overlap of colors doesn't always necessitate that they come from both slices of the pie... just that they could. I've read the Designing 101-103 articles and the colors... so I have a fraction of an idea of how dedicated they are to that pie chart.

24x30cl wrote:
The problem is, even though the Nephilims are insanely cool, they're only cool because they're 4 colors. They do however a pretty bad job at representing the colors they are. This is because there is always some overlap in the color pie. You can only really create something that is everything but blue if you can define what blue has that no other color has.
As I said above, I'd think that the bolded part would make the production of a four color legends plausible.

24x30cl wrote:
On topic:
This seems like a clear case for house rules: The official rules would get way to clunky if we did this, and since all Nephilims have a power level comparable to that of Cho-Manno, there isn't a large chance many players would oppose you playing them.
Agreed. But it'd still be nice to have permission from the rules committee or preferably actual four color legends... although that Reaper King idea just might work.

Majus wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
Sorry, I'm just a random new user who likes playing multicolored decks.


Ha! You misunderstood. I was directing that towards any R&D person who happened to read this thread. Wasn't implying that you you are part of the R&D :lol:

:facepalm: Well, in my defense, with the way I interpreted it I thought it was a joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-02 4:27 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mockingbird wrote:
24x30cl wrote:
The problem is, even though the Nephilims are insanely cool, they're only cool because they're 4 colors. They do however a pretty bad job at representing the colors they are. This is because there is always some overlap in the color pie. You can only really create something that is everything but blue if you can define what blue has that no other color has.
As I said above, I'd think that the bolded part would make the production of a four color legends plausible.


I'm not saying it's not plausible, it's just really hard to create something that feels 4 colors. With 5 colors the critter is just a little bit of everything. With 4 colors it is a bit of everything but [certain color]. This makes it hard (due to the overlap) to make it a flavorful 4 color and not feel a little 5 color (what Sheldon meant by a 5 color in disguise).

Though it might also help if R&D would design more from a flavor perspective instead of mechanic perspective.

Mockingbird wrote:
24x30cl wrote:
On topic:
This seems like a clear case for house rules: The official rules would get way to clunky if we did this, and since all Nephilims have a power level comparable to that of Cho-Manno, there isn't a large chance many players would oppose you playing them.
Agreed. But it'd still be nice to have permission from the rules committee

I'd bet you most of the RC wouldnt have a problem with you playing a Nephilim, probably even against them, and they do stimulate house rules. That's the best you're gonna get.

Make the Nephilim deck, and take Reaper King with you just in case some douche has a problem with you playing the Nephilim.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-03 10:58 am 
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24x30cl wrote:
The problem is, even though the Nephilims are insanely cool, they're only cool because they're 4 colors. They do however a pretty bad job at representing the colors they are. This is because there is always some overlap in the color pie. You can only really create something that is everything but blue if you can define what blue has that no other color has.



good design of a 4 color dude should REALLY embody, not so much his colors, but something that is extremely NOT the 5th color. Have the non red one unable to deal damage but do other cool stuff. the non white one should make damage unpreventable and be super aggressive. maybe even have pro white...etc.

they say in the Nephilim article on WOTC that designing a 4 color card is difficult, but I am pretty sure its not as hard as they think exspecially for a legendary creature. the nelephims were pretty poor designs in that regard, but are super cool build around me dudes. it really is too bad that they arent creatueres


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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-03 1:43 pm 
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Quote:
unable to deal damage but do other cool stuff.
But what other cool stuff? That's the challenge. What's shows up most in green? Big creatures with trample? What shows up least in green? Direct damage? So you try something like this?

Green Sucks
3WUBR
Legendary Creature
Prevent all damage that creatures would deal to players.
Whenever damage is prevented, you may have target player lose that much life and draw that many cards.
7/7

I guess that could work. It's a little busy and very powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephilims as Potential Four-Colored Generals
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-03 3:37 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Fugu wrote:
Quote:
unable to deal damage but do other cool stuff.
But what other cool stuff? That's the challenge. What's shows up most in green? Big creatures with trample? What shows up least in green? Direct damage? So you try something like this?

Green Sucks
3WUBR
Legendary Creature
Prevent all damage that creatures would deal to players.
Whenever damage is prevented, you may have target player lose that much life and draw that many cards.
7/7

I guess that could work. It's a little busy and very powerful.


There's nothing red or blue about that.

(Try "whenever damage is prevented, target player chosen at random loses that much life and draws that many cards". Still not very blue, but an awesome WBR card. )


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