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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 2:27 pm 
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Quote:
"This" has been explained, although American_Kid implied that I'm lazy, when there's also the factor of "who needs to read another big long paragraph that says the same damn thing".


I the quoted stuff too! Note the "personally I don't blame him..." part. :D

Quote:
Sid is saying he just agrees with what you posted. Basically he is too lazy to restate the same crap over again so he just gives you credit saying "this" is what I want to say. Personally I don't blame him because after the bazillion of posts he makes a day, I would get tired of typing too.


We all love you Sid.

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Painter's Servant's fun synergetic uses way outclass things like Iona and Grindstone. Oona and Jaya would like Painter's Servant back. There are so many color specific cards that become awesome plays with it. I think Painter's Servant makes more cards playable then unplayable.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 2:31 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Not to mention Painer's Stone is effectively neutered by Eldrazi Titans. The combo isn't good enough in my opinion, speaking from a HArdcore SPike perspective (I take this perspective from time to time). The problem is even worse in multiplayer, where you then get ganged up on for tryign to take a player out with an auto-win.

Sharrum decks run much worse IMHO, and those are combos that can kill the whole board. Kiki-Jiki Pestermie is also much much better than Painter's Stone, and only costs 1 more mana (5 KJ + 3 Pest instead of 1 play+3 activate+3 painter). It can also be fully fetched out by Survival and Tooth and Nail (nether of which is true for Painter's Stone without adding other cards to the mix), returned by 'Lark, etc...

Iona + Servant is gross, but still not as gross as Kiki=Jiki pestermite, as per the reasons above and the resilliance fo the combo pieces and ease of recurring them.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 4:17 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
Yes, I did mix up the "this" with your sig. Sorry for the confusion.

Well, I think Kaldare summed up pretty well actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 8:53 pm 
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kaldare wrote:
Answering arguments:

1. Painter's Servant is NOT an engine card. Engines convert one resource to another resource. Examples are Survival of the Fittest (Creatures for other creatures), Staff of Domination (Mana for ... Anything really) and Claws of Gix. (Permanents for life.) Engines have inherit potential to make infinite (or just really abusive) combos, and that is a problem if the particular engine is too powerful and/or too easy to abuse. (Survival in Legacy, Staff in Commander.) Painter's Servant isn't an Engine, it's just a synergistic card. The likelihood of it being broken with future cards is no greater then that of ANY effect that's remotely unique, AKA a large portion of the funnest cards in commander. In fact, in the case of Iona, there's no guarantee that something in the future won't break THAT. It's quite nearly as likely as something breaking PS.

2. Cards like Chaotic Backlash are perfectly fine with PS.
I mean, 20 damage for 5? That only works IF you have PS in play?
Well, Sorin can easily do more then that for 6, without any combo needed.... and if your opponent has 15 or twenty permanents on the battlefield, it's either late enough in the game that you could be casting plenty of OTHER broken things, or your opponent is going nuts with accel/tokens, in which case I think having a way to kill that player is prolly a GOOD thing for the entire table.

3. All is Dust? Making Obliterate into a 2 card combo that isn't uncountable is NOT a big deal. Plus, you can't even by cheesy with indestruble effects with All is Dust, so it' acually worse unless you're doing suspend shenanigans, in which case you're in red and already have PLENTY of mass destruction that don't require a PS in play. (Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation, Devastation, Apocalypse, Joukaluops)

4. Finally, Grindstone/PS is the kind of combo played only by hardcore win-at-all-costs spikes... And they already have plenty of degenerate things to do if they're not hated out of the game... which they usually are in more casual groups... In anything less casual, the combo isn't powerful to really matter all that much.

5. Iona generally serves only one purpose... to completely hose 1 or more players out of the game. That's pretty much the antithesis of fun.
Now if you're casting it on turn 9 for 9 mana... That's not really a problem. But Iona "Combos" with far more cards the PS does, and far more efficiently at that. For example, ANY cheap reanimation spell. Or really, ANY way to sneak a creature into play quickly.

This.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 12:20 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Second that ^


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 10:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Killane wrote:
Not to mention Painer's Stone is effectively neutered by Eldrazi Titans. The combo isn't good enough in my opinion, speaking from a HArdcore SPike perspective (I take this perspective from time to time). The problem is even worse in multiplayer, where you then get ganged up on for tryign to take a player out with an auto-win.


Like everyone plays Eldrazi Titans :|

Grindstone is however completely pointless in EDH without PS. Who here can honestly say they have played Grindstone in EDH? Banning it would cost the format NOTHING.

American_Kid wrote:
Painter's Servant's fun synergetic uses way outclass things like Iona and Grindstone. Oona and Jaya would like Painter's Servant back. There are so many color specific cards that become awesome plays with it. I think Painter's Servant makes more cards playable then unplayable.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-24 12:17 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-02 2:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: England
I'd like to play with my servant again.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-24 1:21 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
The Eldrazi Titans are ubiquitous enough that Painter-Grindstone is not a reliable enough wincon for a hardcore Spike. It's just worse than the other available options. Color requirements are close enough to meaningless in this format anyways given the fixing available.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-13 9:53 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-16 6:55 am
Age: Wyvern
@Killane: I think the bigger reason is that it can be run in decks like erayo and clique, with a healthy amount of counter magic to back it up.

Been testing PS in my teysa deck. At worst, it's a far more fragile Darkest hour. At best, it lets me plague wind. Someone tried to AiD + PS the other day, but venser stopped it.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-15 2:34 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Beanman1000 wrote:
@Killane: I think the bigger reason is that it can be run in decks like erayo and clique, with a healthy amount of counter magic to back it up.

.


Yes but with the craptastic tutor suite available to mono U, it's just not good in Clique. IDK abotu Erayo, but clique doesn't want a card that's 99% dead without Painter, and doesn't want to run BEB and Hydroblast to make Painter somewhat worthwhile without the Stone. You could make a virtually mono-U 5 color or 3 color lsit that uses this combo and takes advantage of tutors, but Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite is available in Grixis and 5-color and is a much better combo IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-15 7:52 pm 
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Grindstone won't get played. Too many Eldrazi.

Painter's servant is cooler than Iona, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-16 6:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
Honestly, this is the one ban that I could never wrap my head around. It just never made sense.

Isn't Painter's Servant an artifact creature? Isn't that the most vulnerable kind of permanent in this format? Isn't any combo with it a two card combo that you can typically see coming? There are only two combos that have the potential to end the game on the spot, and only one of those is even arguably more broken than anything else that's legal in the format. Generally, Servant is going to be used for one of three purposes:

1) Painter/Grindstone

2) Painter/Iona

3) Painter/General

In the first case, I'd argue that, while Painter's Servant is the enabler, Grindstone is the card that should be banned. Grindstone is harder to find and doesn't really contribute anything to the format. By banning Painter's Servant, you've effectively banned Grindstone as well. This is the only interaction which seems too degenerate for this format.

In the second case, you're relying on resolving a 9 mana creature that would probably win the game anyway. If you try to resolve both pieces separately, there's plenty of opportunity to interact with them before you're locked out. If someone casts Tooth and Nail for these, doesn't a resolved Tooth and Nail usually end the game anyway? Honestly, this doesn't seem any more degenerate than any of the other color-intensive game-winning combos that are already legal in the format.

In the third case, aren't these the kinds of silly interactions we look for when we're playing this format? I mean, sure, it's pretty obvious, but you can do some pretty cool things when all your creatures are the appropriate colors for your ravnica legends. I mean, I guess Elfball combo with Momir Vig would get better, but for the most part, these interactions are about as fair as anything else that's legal in the format.

I don't think it's fair to ban a card because it "could be broken later." I also don't think it's fair to ban one of the combo pieces that's probably the easiest to interact with in the format. I mean, it's an artifact creature with three toughness. Every color has dozens of ways to kill this, and every deck at the table is going to be running a few of them.

Should we ban Rings of Brighthearth because it tends to go infinite with Deserted Temple? Either for infi turns with Magosi or infi mana with lands of various types? Palinchron sees play exclusively to generate infinite mana and combos with a lot more things. Mind over Matter is another card that's harder to interact with and used exclusively for comboing out.

Granted, I know that some of these don't win the game on the spot, or are more color intensive or whatever, but the point is that Painter is easier to interact with than a lot of other cards that are used exclusively as combo pieces. No one plays Rings or Palinchron or MoM with the intention of being "fair," and yet they remain legal. Painter's Servant was used for all kinds of legitimate corner-case applications, and was, all told, a really interesting and powerful card...but under a very specific set of conditions.

I think if we're all being honest, banning Grindstone accomplishes ALMOST the same thing as banning Painter's Servant in that it gets rid of the fast, artifact-based combo that could ruin metagames. I don't think we'd see any serious Turbo-Iona-Lock decks, and even if we did, are they any worse than the turbo Arcum/Erayo/Teferi/Hokori/other stupid lock decks? You're banning an extremely vulnerable piece of multiple two card combos that DON'T win the game when there are a number of cards that are effectively one card combos (with generals) that DO win the game, that are easier to tutor up/ramp out and harder to interact with. There are plenty of cards that really ought to be banned before Painter's Servant.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-16 6:57 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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As a devil's advocate, not to take away your argument otherwise: servant has a number of uses other than those three.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-16 8:23 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I would like to be able to do Painter + Deathgrip/Lifeforce ; but that would be utterly and stupidly ridiculous in EDH.

If nothing else, their flavor text is some of the best in the game. (even though neither was printed in homelands.)


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-16 11:27 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
I would love to make an Ishan's Shade deck with Painter's Servant...there are tons of other cool things that care about card color. Hell there are tons of goofy color based things that painter's servant is cool with. I think an Iona ban would have been better. Iona punishes mono-color which is already punished enough by not having answers to everything. Servant Grindstone is easy to disrupt and harder to pull of in EDH. I dont care if someone does play it its just another Niv-Mizzer/curiosity like combo


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