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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 2:04 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
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Fugu wrote:
This.

This.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 6:35 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
American_Kid wrote:
I'd rather see Grindstone banned before Painter's Servant. Does anyone really play Iona anyways? ...

Iona? Sure.
One of the best ways to lock out MonoGreen Ramp or MBC, or MUC, or MonoWhite Stax.
I run Iona in a few different decks, and I have several ways to reliably get her into the yard and reanimated by turn 3 to turn 5, based on the deck.
Although, I don't usually cheat her out UNLESS I know I'm facing a douchbag deck. I consider Iona to be one of those cards which helps keep specific archetypes in check; just like Sundering Titan (while also an unfun card) helps keep 5Color under control.

And I'd rather she remain unbanned because, believe it or not, she's a balancing factor for the format. Ever time I sit down to build a monocolored deck I have to consider Iona, and whether or not it's necessary to devote space to an O-Stone or All is Dust.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 9:04 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-24 3:52 pm
Age: Drake
intreped wrote:
Fugu wrote:
This.

This.



^ This....

But, not this... v


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 10:52 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
In a multiplayer game however, she is aweful. I would never consider her just to hose one color. Maybe it's just the people I play with, but all five colors are present in our games. Negating one of them does nothing more than piss people off.

Btw, I personally believe that other than white, every mono-color deck should run the Ostone Ndisk and ADust. This is because Red Black and Blue have a tough time with enchantments, Blue and Green can't easily deal with hordes of creatures, Black and blue have a difficult time destroying artifacts... white on the other hand can deal with all of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 12:09 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
American_Kid wrote:
I'd rather see Grindstone banned before Painter's Servant. Does anyone really play Iona anyways? Seems really bad without Servant. Might as well ban her too. Unlike Iona, Painter's Servant has many more synergies with other cards. Yea more cards would be added to the list but no one plays them so who cares.

Banned List:

- Painter's Servant

+ Iona
+ Grindstone

Sid is saying he just agrees with what you posted. Basically he is too lazy to restate the same crap over again so he just gives you credit saying "this" is what I want to say. Personally I don't blame him because after the bazillion of posts he makes a day, I would get tired of typing too.


So what happens when Wizards prints another card that synergizes ridiculously well with Painter's Servant? Are we going to have to ban that card too just to keep Painter's Servant legal?

I mean, it wouldn't be a stretch for Wizards to print a hypothetical card like this?

Ultimate Drain Spell 2bbb
Sorcery
Each opponent loses X life, where X is equal to twice the number of green and white permanents that player controls. You gain life equal to the total amount of life lost this way.

Or something along those lines. The point remains, is that by banning Painter's Servant, you save yourself the headache of having to look at future cards that combo with Painter.

Bottom line: Engines should be banned, not the cards that piggyback off of the engine. This is why Survival of the Fittest was banned instead of Vengevine in Legacy. There should not be multiple cards banned just so everybody can play Painter's Servant. Yes I know it sucks that you can't use it with Jaya or Oona to really make them beastly generals, but sometimes stuff like that is going to inevitably be caught in the crossfire when cards are banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 1:01 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
No, you allow the 2 card combos to exist, because it is impossible to ban all of the ones that result in broken effects, getting, resolving, and sticking 2 spells is enough to warrant a good chance at winning the game. There are too many to ban all of them and its inconsistent to only ban the ones that show up often. If Iona or Grindstone were to get banned, it should not be because its broken with painters servant and vice versa.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 1:39 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Wizards won't make another card that breaks Painter's Servant, at least not for a long time and only by mistake. Should that happen, the banned list can simply be revised (assuming it is really that bad). Until then, take the card off the list that is synergistic with multiple generals, and add two cards, one of which doesn't see play, and the other sees minimal play.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 3:10 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
American_Kid wrote:
Wizards won't make another card that breaks Painter's Servant, at least not for a long time and only by mistake. Should that happen, the banned list can simply be revised (assuming it is really that bad). Until then, take the card off the list that is synergistic with multiple generals, and add two cards, one of which doesn't see play, and the other sees minimal play.


They just recently printed All is Dust, which gives every single deck a colorless Apocalypse when combined with Painter's Servant. It's not "broken", but it's still a ridiculous synergy that anyone can abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 4:13 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
Synergy is not banworthy, if anything its to be encouraged


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 6:49 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Bksuperdl wrote:
Iron wrote:
He was simply stating that he agreed with your point.

You mean sid or Daf or are you being sarcastic? If youre not being sarcastic, what sids purpose in quoting me and then saying all the other players killed him and if daf, then how is accusing someone of trollling a statement of affirmation? :? :shock:

Do you speak english? If it's your native language, you are different to most people. In that you are annoying. I hope that's working well for you.

"This" just means "I agree with this".

Please don't annoy me and argue over why it means that.

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Last edited by onlainari on 2011-Jan-19 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 6:53 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Personally, I would like to see Commander with Painter's Servant unbanned. I would also like Grindstone unbanned. It's so gimmicky I don't believe it's justified. Honestly, who would bother with grindstone in their current Commander deck, given an unbanned painter's servant?

Iona would need to be banned, but I would like her banned anyway even without painter's servant.

All is dust and painter's servant is nothing new, and in fact so many cards do it by themselves I'm not seeing why it needs to be brought up.

Surging Chaos wrote:
The point remains, is that by banning Painter's Servant, you save yourself the headache of having to look at future cards that combo with Painter.

I consider this being more unlikely. Maybe back last year I had the same thought, however right now I think it would be unlikely for a future card that would throw painter's servant back on the ban list.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 7:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Bksuperdl wrote:
Iron wrote:
He was simply stating that he agreed with your point.

You mean sid or Daf or are you being sarcastic? If youre not being sarcastic, what sids purpose in quoting me and then saying all the other players killed him and if daf, then how is accusing someone of trollling a statement of affirmation? :? :shock:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's not completely up to speed on internet lingo.

"This" has been explained, although American_Kid implied that I'm lazy, when there's also the factor of "who needs to read another big long paragraph that says the same damn thing".

A "troll" is someone who deliberately says stupid/inflammatory things to incite a response/piss people off because they think it's funny/want attention, etc.

And I think you've misread my signature as part of my post. "He died to players killing him" is my sig. It had nothing to do with my post or my quoting you whatsoever.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 7:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Surging Chaos wrote:
I mean, it wouldn't be a stretch for Wizards to print a hypothetical card like this?

Ultimate Drain Spell 2bbb
Sorcery
Each opponent loses X life, where X is equal to twice the number of green and white permanents that player controls. You gain life equal to the total amount of life lost this way.

Or something along those lines. The point remains, is that by banning Painter's Servant, you save yourself the headache of having to look at future cards that combo with Painter.

Bottom line: Engines should be banned, not the cards that piggyback off of the engine. This is why Survival of the Fittest was banned instead of Vengevine in Legacy. There should not be multiple cards banned just so everybody can play Painter's Servant. Yes I know it sucks that you can't use it with Jaya or Oona to really make them beastly generals, but sometimes stuff like that is going to inevitably be caught in the crossfire when cards are banned.


I don't have a problem with people saying PS should be banned in case shit happens (though I do disagree with it). I do find it a little weird at the least to make up a card of your own to show that PS could be broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 12:45 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
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Location: Memphis, TN
A somewhat worse card already exists:

Chaotic Backlash

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 2:16 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
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Answering arguments:

1. Painter's Servant is NOT an engine card. Engines convert one resource to another resource. Examples are Survival of the Fittest (Creatures for other creatures), Staff of Domination (Mana for ... Anything really) and Claws of Gix. (Permanents for life.) Engines have inherit potential to make infinite (or just really abusive) combos, and that is a problem if the particular engine is too powerful and/or too easy to abuse. (Survival in Legacy, Staff in Commander.) Painter's Servant isn't an Engine, it's just a synergistic card. The likelihood of it being broken with future cards is no greater then that of ANY effect that's remotely unique, AKA a large portion of the funnest cards in commander. In fact, in the case of Iona, there's no guarantee that something in the future won't break THAT. It's quite nearly as likely as something breaking PS.

2. Cards like Chaotic Backlash are perfectly fine with PS.
I mean, 20 damage for 5? That only works IF you have PS in play?
Well, Sorin can easily do more then that for 6, without any combo needed.... and if your opponent has 15 or twenty permanents on the battlefield, it's either late enough in the game that you could be casting plenty of OTHER broken things, or your opponent is going nuts with accel/tokens, in which case I think having a way to kill that player is prolly a GOOD thing for the entire table.

3. All is Dust? Making Obliterate into a 2 card combo that isn't uncountable is NOT a big deal. Plus, you can't even by cheesy with indestruble effects with All is Dust, so it' acually worse unless you're doing suspend shenanigans, in which case you're in red and already have PLENTY of mass destruction that don't require a PS in play. (Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation, Devastation, Apocalypse, Joukaluops)

4. Finally, Grindstone/PS is the kind of combo played only by hardcore win-at-all-costs spikes... And they already have plenty of degenerate things to do if they're not hated out of the game... which they usually are in more casual groups... In anything less casual, the combo isn't powerful to really matter all that much.

5. Iona generally serves only one purpose... to completely hose 1 or more players out of the game. That's pretty much the antithesis of fun.
Now if you're casting it on turn 9 for 9 mana... That's not really a problem. But Iona "Combos" with far more cards the PS does, and far more efficiently at that. For example, ANY cheap reanimation spell. Or really, ANY way to sneak a creature into play quickly.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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