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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 1:40 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
Fugu wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I completely agree that the PS/Grindstone combo is unfun. But as the RC hasnt banned all of the similarly unfun combos (probably because there are hundreds of them and many of the pieces are fair, cool cards like PS), they shouldnt single out one of the not as gamebreaking ones (relatively) and ban a piece of it that is quite a fun card with certain other generals (ie oona).
This is a fair argument. It might go a long way toward convincing folks (like me) to lay out the data. Can you list as many two card instant win combo's as you can think of that are comparable to Painter's Servant/Grindstone? Keep in mind that PS/G is colorless, costs only 6 mana, and requires no set up. (But it does only kill one player at a time.) Other combo pieces might be justifiably unbanned because they are colored and therefore fit into fewer decks, or because they take more mana or require set up to initiate.

Well, I will concede that many of the combos I can think of off the top of my head arent colorless. Im sure there are other colorless infinite combos, but i dont have time to look it up right now. Google Infinite combos mtg and there are sites that list hundreds of them, sorted by color. The infinite combos I can think of off the top of my head are:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye
Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith+Power Artifact
Tidespout Tyrant + Mana Vault
My brother had some Goblins infinite damage combo he could recur with wort, but i forget it..


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 2:12 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Quote:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye
Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith+Power Artifact
Tidespout Tyrant + Mana Vault
Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity doesn't kill a player instantly because you need to draw a card and Niv-Mizzet might not be active. It also costs more mana in more colors than PS/G.

Monolith/Power Artifact doesn't kill a player instantly, it just generates unlimited colorless mana.

Tidespout Tyrant/Mana Vault doesn't kill a player instantly either. You need a third permanent costing 1 or less to complete the chain, and even then, it's just unlimited colorless mana and a high storm count, not victory. It also costs 6UUU.

Can anyone else think of two card instant wins that are comparable to Painter's Servant/Grindstone?

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 3:48 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Apr-16 9:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Regina, SK
Little tougher now that Staff of Domination is banned, but I thought up two.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Pestermite/Sky Hussar/Seeker of Skybreak/Intruder Alarm
Sunstrike Legionnaire + Elemental Mastery/Splinter Twin


I compare Painter's Servant to Kiki-Jiki. Obviously busted in the right deck, but just way too much fun to warrant a ban.


Last edited by Stardust on 2010-Dec-20 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 3:53 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Stardust wrote:
I compare Painter's Servant to Kiki-Jiki. Obviously busted in the right deck, but just way too much fun to warrant a ban.


I feel the same way. Banning PS was a dream crusher.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 4:03 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
Painter's Servant just makes too many decent cards amazingly good, and makes good cards ridiculous. Oona becomes absurd with a PS, Northern and Southern Paladins become Vindicates, and it allows almost all of black's removal to ignore its only drawback. Mana Maze and Iona will basically end games or grind them to a halt.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 5:19 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-16 6:55 am
Age: Wyvern
Boshea wrote:
Painter's Servant just makes too many decent cards amazingly good, and makes good cards ridiculous. Oona becomes absurd with a PS, Northern and Southern Paladins become Vindicates, and it allows almost all of black's removal to ignore its only drawback. Mana Maze and Iona will basically end games or grind them to a halt.


How is oona absurd with PS? Does she kill instantly? Does she generate a completely unfun gamestate? All it does is make tokens = mana spent on the ability. You would still need a third, infinite mana combo, to win that way....and even then the infinite mana combo would allow you to win regardless of whether PS was in play or not.

While paladins can be vindicate-esque, they're nowhere near as strong. When PS was legal, how many decks were complaining about the paladin's comboing with PS? The reason almost no one was complaining about it (and I say "almost" simply because absolute statements tend to be incorrect) was because it was/is a 2 card, creature based combo that requires 8 mana and a turn.
Plus, barring some sort of untap ability already in play, it can only be used once per turn.

And if you're talking about targeting non-black creatures, PS doesn't completely overwrite color, like Darkest hour. It simply adds an additional color.

Yes, like I said before, Iona + PS lock is strong, however I feel its no stronger than erayo + lab lock, or yosei + volrath's stronghold in 1v1 situations. And mana maze + PS tends to be a more complicated rule of law, rather than a lock.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-27 11:31 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-27 10:59 am
Age: Wyvern
I think its obvious why PS got banned when other cards with similar effects like Shifting Sky still allowed to be played. PS don't have any color restriction, meaning it can fit into any lock deck. Shifting Sky is blue (as many othet color alteration effects cards), so your general must have blue. PS effects the whole game - hands, library, graveyard, battlefield, thus allowing lots of spell and abilities that relies on color to be magnified ten, hundred, thousandfold. Getting locked by Iona or milled by Grindstone is not fun, but discarding everything to Crosis, doubling your Saprolings every turn with Rith, or taking damage from Darigaaz is painfully annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-28 2:50 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-16 6:55 am
Age: Wyvern
arcana13 wrote:
I think its obvious why PS got banned when other cards with similar effects like Shifting Sky still allowed to be played. PS don't have any color restriction, meaning it can fit into any lock deck. Shifting Sky is blue (as many othet color alteration effects cards), so your general must have blue. PS effects the whole game - hands, library, graveyard, battlefield, thus allowing lots of spell and abilities that relies on color to be magnified ten, hundred, thousandfold. Getting locked by Iona or milled by Grindstone is not fun, but discarding everything to Crosis, doubling your Saprolings every turn with Rith, or taking damage from Darigaaz is painfully annoying.

I think you are greatly exaggerating the effect that PS has with respect to those generals. There is a reason most people who play certain shards don't play with the elder dragon from that shard. Simply put, as is, they are sub par. Even with PS, certain generals already produce that effect on their own. Discarding your hand? Nico Bolas. Doubling tokens? Rhys. And with Darigaaz, 4-7 points of damage is not a lot in EDH. Especially when compared to other elder dragons who destroy lands, or play spells for free, or reanimate from any GY. Outside of Iona and grindstone, you have sub-par 2 card combos, which generate more fun than frustration. Can azusa run the AiD + PS, sure, but why would it want to ramp just to kill it's board? Could any other deck? Yeah, but, again, a counterable board reset isn't game breaking. Does PS make jaya better? Yes. Does it put it in the same category as zur, azami, asuza, sharuum? No way!


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-05 12:43 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I figured I'd throw in my three cents on why Painter's Servant should be unbanned.
Note that I've never played with PS in EDH, nor would it fit into any of my current decks, so I have no personal stake here. Also, I have played AGANST all of the cards listed below while PS was legal.

Painter's servant does ONE thing -- Boost the power level of other cards
Thus, the question becomes, does it do so SO effectively that it makes the game unfair and/or unfun?
Also, note that it's VERY easy to kill a PS, since it has both the most killable card types on it. (Artifact and creature.) Every single deck should have answers for at least ONE of those two things.

The following have been mentioned:
-Iona: I'm guessing this is the primary problem people have with PS. Then again, I still hear complaints every single time it's cast, and it's ONLY purpose is locking people out of the game... Why wasn't THIS banned if something needed to be? It's entire purpose is unfun for most players.

-Grindstone: So no one plays Ulamog or Kozilek anymore? Because it seems like a really bad idea to depend on this combo when it won't work on 75%+ of players. Maybe players in your area play less Eldrazi? Even if so, it's not hard to add one to any deck if some douche decides to start playing this combo. And before anyone mentions Leyline of the Void, that makes it a three card combo. There are several hundred of those in EDH that aren't ban worthy, and most of those kill ALL your opponents at once. Best case scenario, ONE player is eliminated, and the others have an entire turm cycle to kill either of the cards or their controller. Not that big of a deal.

-Teysa: This is only a concern because she can be a general. Even so, it's just a conditional plague wind that's vulnerable to any removal any player cares to throw at it. It doesn't win the game without another card, most of which are bad. As I've mentioned, three cards combos are fair anyway.

-Oona: Oh. X tokens for X mana. And the problem is?

-Paladins: Are you kidding? A two card combo to... vindicate one permanent a turn? That is the definition of fair.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-05 2:44 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
kaldare wrote:
Intelligent and well thought out post.


I'm.... well a person of no consequence, but I approve this message anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 6:46 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
arcana13 wrote:
I think its obvious why PS got banned when other cards with similar effects like Shifting Sky still allowed to be played. PS don't have any color restriction, meaning it can fit into any lock deck. Shifting Sky is blue (as many othet color alteration effects cards), so your general must have blue. PS effects the whole game - hands, library, graveyard, battlefield, thus allowing lots of spell and abilities that relies on color to be magnified ten, hundred, thousandfold. Getting locked by Iona or milled by Grindstone is not fun, but discarding everything to Crosis, doubling your Saprolings every turn with Rith, or taking damage from Darigaaz is painfully annoying.


I had PS in my Rith deck when it was still legal. I took it out before it got banned. The thing is that half the time people won't allow you to attack with a 6/6 flying dragon anyway. It was always a 'win more'. I only kept it in that deck so long cause it seemed so cool to 60 tokens. However if your opponents can't handle 60 4/4 trampling saprolings, chances are they can't handle 15. So after one over the top win, I took it out for a whispersilk cloak

Out of those 3, only Crosis seems remotely powerful. Keep in mind though that Nicol Bolas does the same thing, only now you pay on the attack instead of the upkeep. Is this really a two card combo worth mentioning?

kaldare wrote:
-Iona: I'm guessing this is the primary problem people have with PS. Then again, I still hear complaints every single time it's cast, and it's ONLY purpose is locking people out of the game... Why wasn't THIS banned if something needed to be? It's entire purpose is unfun for most players.


Agreed. While I totally understand playing a mono colored deck makes you vulnerable vs dual or tri colored, waiting till you draw into an All is Dust or Oblivion Stone. Heartless Hidetsugu has no problem losing to a Story Circle, but not being able to play anthing at all makes a Grand Arbiter seem fun to play.

kaldare wrote:
-Grindstone: So no one plays Ulamog or Kozilek anymore? Because it seems like a really bad idea to depend on this combo when it won't work on 75%+ of players. Maybe players in your area play less Eldrazi? Even if so, it's not hard to add one to any deck if some douche decides to start playing this combo. And before anyone mentions Leyline of the Void, that makes it a three card combo. There are several hundred of those in EDH that aren't ban worthy, and most of those kill ALL your opponents at once. Best case scenario, ONE player is eliminated, and the others have an entire turm cycle to kill either of the cards or their controller. Not that big of a deal.


One of my favorite cards of all time, however it has absolutely no place in a 100-card multiplayer format. It just sucks to much on it's own. I disagree with you on the eldrazi titan thing. This card should be banned in EDH rather than force you to commit one of your slots to an eldrazi titan just to make sure you don't die to it.

kaldare wrote:
-Teysa: This is only a concern because she can be a general. Even so, it's just a conditional plague wind that's vulnerable to any removal any player cares to throw at it. It doesn't win the game without another card, most of which are bad. As I've mentioned, three cards combos are fair anyway.


Teysa is probably the biggest winner from an unbanned PS. However Teysa still loses to strategies that are light creatures. Teysa can do silly things without PS, but PS does allow her to go infinite (think Alter of Dementia for example)

kaldare wrote:
-Oona: Oh. X tokens for X mana. And the problem is?


X-1 tokens actually.

kaldare wrote:
-Paladins: Are you kidding? A two card combo to... vindicate one permanent a turn? That is the definition of fair.


:lol:


The only card I've seen so far that could do weird things are Hibernation and Wash Out (two card combo for the banned Upheaval). However I can't remember anyone complaining about these combo's in pre-Iona times.


Again leading me to the conclusion that PS got the same treatment as Rofellos first time around: banned for potential brokenness, not proved brokenness (this is of course since I presume Iona the problem in Iona-PS)

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 12:25 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
24x30cl wrote:
arcana13 wrote:
...
Again leading me to the conclusion that PS got the same treatment as Rofellos first time around: banned for potential brokenness, not proved brokenness (this is of course since I presume Iona the problem in Iona-PS)

Banned for the same reason Staff was banned; it's possible to play nice with it but most decks that run it do so for only one reason, to abuse it.

Painter's is an enabler; while people don't like Iona she generally doesn't lock the table out.She may lock just one player, and prevent another one or two from playing some spells but there's usually someone who can deal with her. Painter/Iona is a perma lock; game over.

Also, you need to take into account that Painter's is a 2 mana colorless creature. Any deck can run it and it's very cheap to cast.

And finally, yes, there is the potential that there will be more broken things down the road, and banning only Painter's now means those other things won't need to be banned later. IIRC, the RC has said that they'd rather keep the list small and so instead of banning the 3 or 5 or 9 cards that combo with Painters to create unfun situations they'd rather just ban Painters.

Essentially Painters came down on the wrong side of a cost benefit analysis.\

Edit: And for the record, I still think "Color Identity" SFB!

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 3:10 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
...So basically, PS was banned instead of Iona because, in the future, it might possibly be broken with more cards? ...Isn't that true of... well, anything that does anything remotely unique/fun/cool?

With Staff of Domination, it was pretty much broken-or-terrible. The card was so horrendously expensive to use that unless you were going infinite with it, it was practically useless... Which is why it was pretty much only played by those who planned to abuse it.
Grindstone is actually a far better comparison to SoD... just like SoD, it's only EVER played by those who plan to abuse it.

On the other hand, the ONLY ways I've ever seen PS abused is via Iona and/or Grindstone.
The majority of decks into which it fits, it's completely fair.

I disagree with banning a fun, interesting card (Painter's Servant) over an unfun, lockout card (Iona).
As for Grindstone... I still think that it's fair. It'll rarely if ever be able to finish the whole table due to Eldrazi, and the Eldrazi are good in nearly any deck. (Is my area the only one where people play mono blue storm combo?)

To sum up, IF, in the future, there is something other then Iona that breaks PS, the topic could always be revisited. Somehow I doubt it though... PS is good enough in legacy as it is, WoTC isn't (usually) THAT stupid.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 8:44 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Unbanning painter's servant and banning iona might see very little decks go out and get grindstones.

I have personally not made up my mind yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-07 10:56 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The ban is fair. And I plan on ignoring it every chance I get.

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