MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander
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Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4926
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Author:  mesti [ 2010-Nov-17 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Daenyth wrote:
All permanents have summoning sickness. It only applies to creatures, but if your signet is a creature, you cannot tap it for mana without giving it haste. Same deal as with Dryad Arbor or not being able to attack with a Glint Hawk Idol the turn you play it.

You're a little late to this party. I hope you brought beer, 'cause we're runnin' out.


Kegger!!!

Yeah, really not seeing how this is anywhere near Staff in terms of brokenness. Staff + any 5+ mana creature goes infinite, or some slightly more convoluted effect. This combo relies on four cards for infinite mana, some of which are quite bad and some of which are meh. Even with all the other effects listed, it's still pretty complicated to set up, and much harder than a Staff combo. If your opponents aren't intelligent enough to run some reasonable amount of enchantment hate (and graveyard hate so you can't just stock up a super Replenish), then they really deserve to get blown out "fairly frequently." This combo is definitely a thousand times worse than a Staff combo, which is why I don't think it'll ever get banned.

Author:  Arglypuff [ 2010-Nov-17 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Well, then I'm trying to see where the limits are for the rules. Staff of Domination gets banned because it's really easy to get it, something that produces mana, and something that makes that mana-producer produce 5 mana. Come to think about it, doesn't that become just about as hard to put together? You need (1) Staff, (2) mana producer, and (3) whatever it takes to make 2 produce 5 mana. I need (1) Parallax Wave, (2) Opalescence, and (3) any creature with an abusable "enters/leaves the battlefield" ability.

Heck, imagine a Zur deck with Wave/Opalescence. All Zur needs is to summon Priest of Gix. Imagine blinking Avenger of Zendikar as many times as you wanted. Or any of the Titans. Or absolutely anything which has an interesting effect.

Sure, it may actually be a bit harder to construct than the Staff Combo, but it can do oh so much more than the petty little Staff. So, does the difficultly of constructing the combo weigh so heavily against banning that no matter how powerful the combo itself is, banning will never happen? Or are a semi-easy and semi-powerful combo, and a less-easy but more-powerful combo equally likely to be banned?

Author:  Boshea [ 2010-Nov-17 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
Sure, it may actually be a bit harder to construct than the Staff Combo, but it can do oh so much more than the petty little Staff. So, does the difficultly of constructing the combo weigh so heavily against banning that no matter how powerful the combo itself is, banning will never happen? Or are a semi-easy and semi-powerful combo, and a less-easy but more-powerful combo equally likely to be banned?

The difference is that Staff can fit into almost any deck. The stuff that has been mentioned so far is pretty narrow, and most of the cards are pretty terrible on their own. Even if you only have the staff out, you have a pretty bad ass artifact in play. Toss in a mana producer and you win the game.

Author:  green slime [ 2010-Nov-17 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
With Opalescence/Parallax Wave, I am only susceptible to 1 card. Stifle. If you don't have Stifle, I get to do whatever I want to do for as long as I feel like it.


Wouldn't a Krosan Grip also put a damper on your little party?

Author:  Arglypuff [ 2010-Nov-18 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

green slime wrote:
Arglypuff wrote:
With Opalescence/Parallax Wave, I am only susceptible to 1 card. Stifle. If you don't have Stifle, I get to do whatever I want to do for as long as I feel like it.


Wouldn't a Krosan Grip also put a damper on your little party?


If I just have Parallax Wave/Opalescence, yes. If I have Glimmerpoint Stag, however, I can keep all players off mana for the rest of the game. I exile each land that comes into play in order, so that each player only ever has 1 land.

Author:  zimagic [ 2010-Nov-18 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
green slime wrote:
Arglypuff wrote:
With Opalescence/Parallax Wave, I am only susceptible to 1 card. Stifle. If you don't have Stifle, I get to do whatever I want to do for as long as I feel like it.


Wouldn't a Krosan Grip also put a damper on your little party?


If I just have Parallax Wave/Opalescence, yes. If I have Glimmerpoint Stag, however, I can keep all players off mana for the rest of the game. I exile each land that comes into play in order, so that each player only ever has 1 land.


That's an ......unfriendly....... application of those cards. I'm not sure I'd enjoy playing a game where someone's sole intent was to exile every land anyone played.

Author:  Carthain [ 2010-Nov-18 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
green slime wrote:
Arglypuff wrote:
With Opalescence/Parallax Wave, I am only susceptible to 1 card. Stifle. If you don't have Stifle, I get to do whatever I want to do for as long as I feel like it.


Wouldn't a Krosan Grip also put a damper on your little party?


If I just have Parallax Wave/Opalescence, yes. If I have Glimmerpoint Stag, however, I can keep all players off mana for the rest of the game. I exile each land that comes into play in order, so that each player only ever has 1 land.

But if they have 3 lands exiled, they could just float the mana between your exiling the lands one by one, and then cast Krosan Grip on you. By the same token, Trickbind & Voidslime would also be able to do you in.

Unless I'm missing something again...

Author:  Boshea [ 2010-Nov-18 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
green slime wrote:
Arglypuff wrote:
With Opalescence/Parallax Wave, I am only susceptible to 1 card. Stifle. If you don't have Stifle, I get to do whatever I want to do for as long as I feel like it.


Wouldn't a Krosan Grip also put a damper on your little party?


If I just have Parallax Wave/Opalescence, yes. If I have Glimmerpoint Stag, however, I can keep all players off mana for the rest of the game. I exile each land that comes into play in order, so that each player only ever has 1 land.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the Stag only blinks permanents. Any instant speed removal will stop this engine at end of turn. Lands return to play, Float mana, destroy Opalescence. In response you'll exile it by blinking your stag.

Blinking stag
-Exile stag
-Exile Wave
-Stag returns
-Exile Opalescence with stag. Opalescence is removed until the next end of turn
Your engine is completely shut down for one turn, and that's probably all some players will need to kill you.

Author:  green slime [ 2010-Nov-18 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
green slime wrote:
Arglypuff wrote:
With Opalescence/Parallax Wave, I am only susceptible to 1 card. Stifle. If you don't have Stifle, I get to do whatever I want to do for as long as I feel like it.


Wouldn't a Krosan Grip also put a damper on your little party?


If I just have Parallax Wave/Opalescence, yes. If I have Glimmerpoint Stag, however, I can keep all players off mana for the rest of the game. I exile each land that comes into play in order, so that each player only ever has 1 land.


So somehow, I can't manage to have three mana available, and a single Krosan grip (or similar), while you have three specific cards requiring the same or more mana.... and no one was playing blue at the table... and everyone let you set this up...right.... I think the balance of "Ifs" make it less than a sure thing.

Author:  24x30cl [ 2010-Nov-19 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Well, if Staff of Domination got the boot...

Arglypuff wrote:
Well, then I'm trying to see where the limits are for the rules. Staff of Domination gets banned because it's really easy to get it, something that produces mana, and something that makes that mana-producer produce 5 mana. Come to think about it, doesn't that become just about as hard to put together? You need (1) Staff, (2) mana producer, and (3) whatever it takes to make 2 produce 5 mana. I need (1) Parallax Wave, (2) Opalescence, and (3) any creature with an abusable "enters/leaves the battlefield" ability.


I think you will find this a good read.

Infinite combo's aren't necessarily a bad thing (ymmv), and cards won't get the boot for being abusable. They'll get the boot for being abused to format damaging proportions*.

*yes, where this line lies is debatable, check linky for the debate.

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