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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-30 10:30 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Joz wrote:
Or is the only reason staff is banned is because of its non-untap abilities?

Basically. It's not the fact that it's an infinite mana combo, it's the fact that it's infinite mana and something to do with that mana rolled into one card. The fact that one of the things you can do is draw your deck essentially means it's an auto-win. Also, the RC tries to encourage interactivity, and as has been said already, 99.9% of the time SoD is used, it's to go infinite and just win.

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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-30 11:15 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-03 10:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
I was all ready to type up an explanation about why IMO Staff is banned in EDH, but then I realized that, in fact, I already had. Therefore:

herodotusjr, 2 freaking months ago wrote:
Staff was stupid because it could go into any deck and Rofellos in particular could abuse the hell out of it because of the mana ramping.


I mean, are people really this obtuse? Every other infinite mana combo I can think of either a) requires a commitment to a particular color (usually blue or green) or b) requires an additional kill card to do anything other than make gobs of mana.

"Eat it bitches! Power Artifact + Grim Monolith = Infi colorless!"
"That's nice. You have no cards in hand. What are you doing with your infi mana?"
"...Spin Top an arbitrary number of times?"

Staff is an engine and a kill in one card, and once it gets going there are 1.5 cards which can stop it (Krosan Grip and MAYBE Time Stop, in which case the table then has to dedicate all of its resources to killing the Staff player before he gets another turn. Seems bad), which is why everyone hates it. I do think Rofellos PROBABLY could have been spared the Banhammer so long as Staff left, but, and again quoting myself here:
herodotusjr, 4 freaking months ago wrote:
Good God almighty, if I had to play against that stupid Rofellos/Staff deck one more time I was actually going to drive the deck through its pilot's thorax. So I appreciate very much the Rules Committee saving me from doing hard time for murder.


Oh, and by the way? After a few games of Staff shenanigans at the LGS I made it a point to blow up Staff and/or its mana source on sight, regardless of whether the other combo piece was anywhere near play. Can you guess how often the Staff player whined about me picking on him when I did this? You guessed it. EVERY SINGLE TIME. :facepalm:

ETA: Oh! Just realized that Sudden Death and Sudden Shock also stop the combo. Sudden Spoiling, Word of Seizing, and Trickbind keep the Staff player from going off that turn, so we'll give them half credit each. So we're up to 5 full cards in all of Magic that can stop Staff combo. Seems fine.

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gaijinguy wrote:
As for blue- being boring/infuriating by crushing everyone else's fun until it assembles a cheeseball combo is pretty much what it DOES.


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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-30 12:16 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
People will not always be able to immediately answer Staff.

Erayo will not always consistently flip on turn 1.

Seriously, stop playing theorymagic Joz.

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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-30 12:47 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Something else that people seem to be missing about the Staff banning, is that Staff is a combo piece, yes, but it's still useful even if you don't have anything to combo off with it.

Pemin's Aura? Sure, you need a creature before it will do anything for you. Same with Power Artifact (need that Monolith before the aura helps).

Staff however, is just always useful until another combo pieces shows up.


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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Oct-01 7:56 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The other uses are however not used that often. The problem is that it allows you to generate infinite mana AND have something to do with that mana at the same time. If you power artifact a monolith you have all the mana you need. If you staff rofellos you have all the mana you need and your deck in hand.

That said, I have built a Oona deck once just to see what was possible. Consistent kill turn 6, with some extremes as in turn 1 are very much possible. It just was really really REALLY boring the second time I did it (and I can only assume I felt like how a €10 hooker must feel - very very dirty)

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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Oct-01 9:36 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-11 9:58 am
Age: Drake
I, too, want Staff unbanned. But I have a different reason. You know how people say that it was banned because 99.99% of the time people used it to go infinite? I was the .01%. I have a deck that generates absurd - but pointedly NOT infinite - mana. Usually 20-25 by turn 4, usually in the sixties each turn after that. But not through infinitely repeatable combos, just good synergy and artifact acceleration. The Staff had NO WAY to go infinite in this deck, since none of the mana came from creatures. But the problem with the deck is that while it can generate a ton of mana, it doesn't always have a lot to do with it. Staff was a great solution to that problem. I never went infinite with it, but I could gain 20 life, draw 10 cards, tap some guys. It was great. And then it was banned. Sad for me, though of course I understand the reasoning.

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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Oct-03 3:27 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
But in your case I'm pretty sure none of your friends should have a problem with you playing it...

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Heartless Hidetsugu
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Reaper King
Ruhan of the Fomori
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Ol
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Roon of the Hidden Realm
Nekusar, the Mindrazer



Sapling of Colfenor
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary



Child of Alara
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Rith, the Awakener
Brion Stoutarm
Experiment Kraj
Razia, Boros Archangel
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Oct-03 1:44 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-10 12:07 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'm usually against banning cards simply because they are fuel for combos, but even I agree that Staff of Domination is degenerate. If it could only produce infinite mana OR life OR cards, it'd be debatable, but seeing as it literally does all of them at once - yeah, it's pretty much an auto-win card.

That said, I still think people need to get over this "cards that win the game should be banned" thing. Certainly there are examples where these cards are problems (painter's servant + grindstone can end the game very early, and coalition victory is far to easily abused in this format), but just because the game is dedicated to being a "fun" format should not mean that infinite combos are outlawed - as far as I'm concerned, ending the game is ending the game. Whether you do that with a massive creature, with a huge burn spell, dealing the last bits of life to each opponent, or by comboing off, is your prerogative.


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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Oct-03 2:34 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Altik_0 wrote:
I'm usually against banning cards simply because they are fuel for combos, but even I agree that Staff of Domination is degenerate. If it could only produce infinite mana OR life OR cards, it'd be debatable, but seeing as it literally does all of them at once - yeah, it's pretty much an auto-win card.

That said, I still think people need to get over this "cards that win the game should be banned" thing. Certainly there are examples where these cards are problems (painter's servant + grindstone can end the game very early, and coalition victory is far to easily abused in this format), but just because the game is dedicated to being a "fun" format should not mean that infinite combos are outlawed - as far as I'm concerned, ending the game is ending the game. Whether you do that with a massive creature, with a huge burn spell, dealing the last bits of life to each opponent, or by comboing off, is your prerogative.

I wish there were more people with this philosophy, but alas...

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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Oct-03 3:54 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-03 10:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
yawg07 wrote:
Altik_0 wrote:
I'm usually against banning cards simply because they are fuel for combos, but even I agree that Staff of Domination is degenerate. If it could only produce infinite mana OR life OR cards, it'd be debatable, but seeing as it literally does all of them at once - yeah, it's pretty much an auto-win card.

That said, I still think people need to get over this "cards that win the game should be banned" thing. Certainly there are examples where these cards are problems (painter's servant + grindstone can end the game very early, and coalition victory is far to easily abused in this format), but just because the game is dedicated to being a "fun" format should not mean that infinite combos are outlawed - as far as I'm concerned, ending the game is ending the game. Whether you do that with a massive creature, with a huge burn spell, dealing the last bits of life to each opponent, or by comboing off, is your prerogative.

I wish there were more people with this philosophy, but alas...



_I_ wish I could dismiss this argument as overly simplistic. Alas.

This is of course a line that is going to vary from person to person and playgroup to playgroup. My own standard is that the win-con should at least be answerable, even if no answer is immediately forthcoming in the particular game. (I would also prefer if the win didn't involve half an hour of you playing with yourself, but I'll take what I can get. This does, of course, require the other players to run answers, which is not always a given. In other words:

Scenario A: Chaining Time Stretch on turn 15. Fine. The table had plenty of time to stop you from getting the pieces of your combo. Please note, however, that if you are playing this style of deck and you whine about my Nightmare Incursion, I WILL punch you in the face.

Scenario B: Chaining Time Stretch on Turn 5 because you drew into your God Hand. A little less fine, since nobody had time to draw into their answers, but it was a confluence of extraordinary circumstances so I'll live with it this one game. See above re: whining about Nightmare Incursion.

Scenario C: Chaining Time Stretch on Turn 5 every or almost every game. Hurray, you broke the most breakable format in Magic. We're all very proud of you. Now we're going to keep playing for second. See above re: whining about Nightmare Incursion if your deck stalls out for whatever reason, except change 'face' to 'junk.'

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gaijinguy wrote:
As for blue- being boring/infuriating by crushing everyone else's fun until it assembles a cheeseball combo is pretty much what it DOES.


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 Post subject: Re: Staff of Dominatrix
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-12 8:24 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I used to play staff all the time in my jaya deck. I used it to: tap things, untap things, draw cards, gain life, and untap its-self. Nothing to fancy, did things that let me stay aggressive. I kept in in for a long time because i wasn't going broken with it by any means, but traveling from area to area, a lot of people threw a fit over it so I took it out .
Two piece combos are all over the place in EDH and the ones involving the staff are stopped by spot removal, or shatters. Seems fine to me. Not to mention Rofellos is no longer playable as the “man it’s easy to find this guy” card.

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Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

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Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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