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 Post subject: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 12:44 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-08 9:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Reposting in the Rules forum:

Is there a definitive answer on the Legendary Creature rule and how it applies to EDH? Also, is this rule being treated differently in the Commander format on MTGO?

I noticed two players were allowed to have the same Legendary Creature out if both were Generals, but if I Cloned or otherwise tried to duplicate said Legendary, only my copy was immediately nuked. However, if I Cloned a non-General Legendary creature, both copies were destroyed. Is this how it works IRL?

Going by Rule 14:

Generals are subject to the Legend rule; they will be put into the graveyard or command zone at the same time as any other Legendary creatures with the same name.

This is definitely NOT how it works in Commander, which is really annoying for decks that duplicate a lot of creatures. Now that the recent patch created a zone just for Generals (and emblems), I was under the impression that Commander and EDH had the same rules. Apparently this is not the case.

_________________
Current generals:

Thraxiumundar - Sacrifice Effects
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Shaman Tribal Ramp
Darien, King of Kjeldor - Go Ahead and Attack
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Nothin' but Counters, Bounce & Draw


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 1:29 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
EDH and Commander are different, yes.
In EDH, Clone kills generals. In Commander, it does not.

Commander honestly has the better rule, though.

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My card alter blog: The Phyrexian Renaissance


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 1:34 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-08 9:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
yawg07 wrote:
EDH and Commander are different, yes.
In EDH, Clone kills generals. In Commander, it does not.

Commander honestly has the better rule, though.


Also, it seems as if Generals are completely immune to the Legendary rule.

Annoying practicing for an October IRL EDH event, when copying creatures (an essential and fun part of my deck) doesn't work right online!

I should ask the TD if he's going to have any house rules...

_________________
Current generals:

Thraxiumundar - Sacrifice Effects
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Shaman Tribal Ramp
Darien, King of Kjeldor - Go Ahead and Attack
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Nothin' but Counters, Bounce & Draw


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 5:19 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
yawg07 wrote:
Commander honestly has the better rule, though.


:cry:

I think people should be punished for playing popular generals. If two play sharuum, better say bye bye :lol:

_________________

Teneb, the Harvester
Heartless Hidetsugu
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Reaper King
Ruhan of the Fomori
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Ol
oro, Ageless Ascetic
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Nekusar, the Mindrazer



Sapling of Colfenor
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary



Child of Alara
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Rith, the Awakener
Brion Stoutarm
Experiment Kraj
Razia, Boros Archangel
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Wort, Bogart Auntie
Kaalia of the Vast
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 6:23 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-10 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: California, USA
yawg07 wrote:
EDH and Commander are different, yes.
In EDH, Clone kills generals. In Commander, it does not.

Commander honestly has the better rule, though.


With all respect for your point of view Yawg07, I have to disagree. In my opinion, using doppelganger effects is an important means of taking out difficult to kill generals who have shroud or indestructible effects. To me, it places an important check on the power levels of certain generals.

_________________
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" -The Witch King of Angmar
"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman." -Éowyn, daughter of Éomund


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 7:12 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
jesstersmasque wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
EDH and Commander are different, yes.
In EDH, Clone kills generals. In Commander, it does not.

Commander honestly has the better rule, though.


With all respect for your point of view Yawg07, I have to disagree. In my opinion, using doppelganger effects is an important means of taking out difficult to kill generals who have shroud or indestructible effects. To me, it places an important check on the power levels of certain generals.


I don't buy that argument, because it doesn't JUST kill the problem generals. This same argument is used for tuck effects, and while they do work to control problem generals, they also get used against completely fair generals and result in people having less fun.

_________________
EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 9:26 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Honestly, almost all the clone effects are in Blue and Blue has more then enough ways to deal with problem Generals.
The argument that Clone effects help control unmanageable Generals is a strawman.

It's a flavor decision, which is fine. My personal leaning is toward the Super Legendary rule but I completely understand the decision for the current rules and have no issues with it.

_________________
Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-13 11:48 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-10 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: California, USA
tempesteye wrote:
Honestly, almost all the clone effects are in Blue and Blue has more then enough ways to deal with problem Generals.
The argument that Clone effects help control unmanageable Generals is a strawman.

It's a flavor decision, which is fine. My personal leaning is toward the Super Legendary rule but I completely understand the decision for the current rules and have no issues with it.


I don't see anything wrong with killing other generals besides trouble generals via clone effects either. Let's just break down general removal via the color pie and see how each color fairs:

Blue: Counterspel (Great) Bounce (less than ideal) Clone (Great) and Stealing (AWESOME)
Ok, sure blue has three ways outside of cloning to take down a general- but what do the other colors have?

Black: -1/-1 (Great) Destroy effects (usually only targets non-black so less than ideal) Force a Sacrifice (Great) Damage via life drain effects (Great) I count 4 same as blue.

Green: Damage to fliers (weak), Destroy permanent (Great, if rare)... ok, only 2 I can think of at the moment but I'm sure it makes up for this lack in other ways. Most likely to have big creatures to counter general threats at any rate.

Red: Direct Damage (Great), Temporary creature stealing (OK in combo with sacrificing effects), Exiling effects via the rare Apocalypse style cards (OK) which is 3 by my count for red.

White: Exile (Great) Mass removal wrath of god effects (AWESOME) Enchantments such as pacify (AWESOME) Odd destroy effects that hit creatures with power 4 or greater or some such (OK) which is 4 by my count for white...

OK, I already know you all can poke holes in my count or name specific cards I'm not thinking of as I right this on the spur of the moment- that's all well and good, but the point I'm trying to make is this. Blue, although possibly the strongest color, does not have an absurd amount of removal. It's comparable with black and white at the least in ways of dealing with generals so I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Further, if you're playing mono-blue and your opponent plays a general with shroud on it- how are you going to deal with it without cloning? You could counter it if your timing is right but if it hits play what can blue do about it? mass bounce is all I can think of which only buys time.

My argument can be summed up in this example from my play group:
Uril, the mist walker is out and huge and enchanted with auras out the yin yang and has already killed one player with general damage. When the guy next to me top decks and plays Clone I'm not upset about it in the slightest and neither is the guy playing Uril. I think he understands there are few enough ways to deal with his general as it is and he doesn't seem to begrudge us our exploitations of the general rule. If a completely harmless Niv Mizzet, the Fire Mind or Rafiq of the Many gets squashed due to clones in the meantime- so be it! :P

_________________
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" -The Witch King of Angmar
"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman." -Éowyn, daughter of Éomund


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 3:29 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm strongly against the "Super-Legendary" rule., for both flavour and power reasons. Nuff-said.

A clone isn't going to remove the General from the game on a permanant basis (just recast later at CC +2), and the clone is placed in the graveyard in the process. Doesn't seem very "unfun" to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 9:49 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
green slime wrote:
A clone isn't going to remove the General from the game on a permanant basis (just recast later at CC +2), and the clone is placed in the graveyard in the process. Doesn't seem very "unfun" to me.

Definitely. However, I agree with Cervid's point that more answers to difficult Generals doesn't necessarily make all games more fun. I pretty much consider the power argument to be null for both sides on the clone issue. I prefer General to Commander because it's one less additional rule, and because I don't buy the flavor justification for super-legends.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 9:57 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
green slime wrote:
I'm strongly against the "Super-Legendary" rule., for both flavour and power reasons. Nuff-said.

I have a hard time buying the idea that the "superlegendary" rule makes generals - even Uril - too powerful, but I can accept that you feel from a rules standpoint that the increase in power is significant enough to not allow it.

What I'm not able to wrap my head around is your flavor justification. Would you care to expand on that some? I find the superlegendary rule to be more flavorful, because it feels wrong for my general to be on your payroll as it were.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 10:29 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-08 9:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It would be nice if the EDH organizers and WOTC could come to some sort of agreement so that the banned lists are the same and the Legendary rule is the same. Many of us alternate online and offline play, and the two variations as they stand are very different.

_________________
Current generals:

Thraxiumundar - Sacrifice Effects
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Shaman Tribal Ramp
Darien, King of Kjeldor - Go Ahead and Attack
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Nothin' but Counters, Bounce & Draw


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 11:12 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FinalLogic wrote:
It would be nice if the EDH organizers and WOTC could come to some sort of agreement so that the banned lists are the same and the Legendary rule is the same. Many of us alternate online and offline play, and the two variations as they stand are very different.

EDH is an unsanctioned format. Unless WotC wanted to kill oops, I mean manage another casual format, you wont see them take it over.
There is some crossover between the two formats; Lee Sharpe is on the RC and also a dev at WotC. He, and elf (Michael Feuell) were the impetus to get Commander online in the first place.

I think the limitations of the MTG:O client necessitate there will always be some minor differences, but that the formats will always remain close.

_________________
Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 12:51 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-08 9:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thank you for the information - the most recent patch to include a Commander zone (that also contains emblems generated by powered-up Planeswalkers) is a nice bone to throw to EDH players, since before the General resided in Exile, which created some dumb card interactions.

(The Commander zone was bugged as hell last time I played, and passive abilities on Generals were working while the General was there, but maybe they've patched again since.)

Are you saying there's no way to get the Legendary rule to line up with offline EDH due to how MTGO works? And how come the banned lists can't sync up? Cards like Sol Ring are outright banned in Commander, but not in EDH.

_________________
Current generals:

Thraxiumundar - Sacrifice Effects
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Shaman Tribal Ramp
Darien, King of Kjeldor - Go Ahead and Attack
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Nothin' but Counters, Bounce & Draw


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 Post subject: Re: Rule 14 in both MTGO and IRL
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 9:04 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FinalLogic wrote:
...

Are you saying there's no way to get the Legendary rule to line up with offline EDH due to how MTGO works? And how come the banned lists can't sync up? Cards like Sol Ring are outright banned in Commander, but not in EDH.

1. No. It's an intentional decision.
2. They are, Every card available online that is on the EDH ban list is banned in Commander.
3. Sol Ring is not banned in either format.

Please see this page: http://community.wizards.com/commander/ ... nder_Rules

On the bottom of that page is the current banned list for Commander. Here's a fish:
tempesteye wrote:
Cards Currently banned in Commander (as of 06/20/10):
Balance, Biorhythm, Braids, Cabal Minion, Channel, Coalition Victory, Gifts Ungiven, Grindstone, Karakas, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Limited Resources, Lion's Eye Diamond, Painter's Servant, Panoptic Mirror, Protean Hulk, Recurring Nightmare, Riftsweeper (should be unbanned now that the Command Zone is implemented), Staff of Domination, Sway of the Stars, Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Upheaval, Worldgorger Dragon
(In paper EDH Braids, Cabal Minion is banned only as a General. The Magic Online client doesn't (or can't) make that distinction, and as such, Braids is banned unconditionally in Commander.

_________________
Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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