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 Post subject: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-20 4:28 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jun-20 4:11 pm
Age: Hatchling
Why have to banned Tolarian Academy? I believe there are more cards need to look at aside from Tolarian... Besides there are Strip mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, etc... for this. And I dont agree that "it fuels easy early-game super-production of mana." since its restricted to 1 what are the odds to have it in early-game? :facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-20 6:12 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
mayonaise wrote:
Besides there are Strip mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, etc... for this.

The argument "that nasty card can be killed with this other card" is very very very very rarely a legitimate argument against the power level of the first card. Anything CAN be answered. Somehow. Rofellos has been re-banned as a general. By your logic, it doesn't need to be because people run spot creature removal.

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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-20 7:04 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
mayonaise wrote:
since its restricted to 1 what are the odds to have it in early-game? :facepalm:


Very, very good, with the various ways to tutor for it...

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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-20 8:03 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-27 8:14 pm
Age: Drake
Cervid wrote:
mayonaise wrote:
since its restricted to 1 what are the odds to have it in early-game? :facepalm:


Very, very good, with the various ways to tutor for it...


And besides that, the argument about a card being restricted to one applies to ALL cards. So by that logic, the banned list is completely unneccessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-20 9:10 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
mayonaise wrote:
And I dont agree that "it fuels easy early-game super-production of mana." since its restricted to 1 what are the odds to have it in early-game? :facepalm:

About 1 in 10 without tutors or card draw. If two people at your table have one, then 1 in 5 games will have an early Tolarian Academy.

P.S. Apostrophes are delightful.


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-21 3:23 am 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
Age: Drake
I was curious... so here's some calculated probabilities:
(My sharuum had 4 tutors capable of grabbing academy directly and then 1 mystical tutor, so I stopped at a "total count" of 6)

Code:
1 academy:
Turn  1:  8.08%
Turn  2:  9.09%
Turn  3: 10.10%
Turn  4: 11.11%
Turn  5: 12.12%

2 academy/tutors:
Turn  1:  15.58%
Turn  2:  17.44%
Turn  3:  19.27%
Turn  4:  21.09%
Turn  5:  22.28%

3 academy/tutors:
Turn  1:  22.55%
Turn  2:  25.10%
Turn  3:  27.60%
Turn  4:  30.04%
Turn  5:  32.42%

4 academy/tutors:
Turn  1:  29.00%
Turn  2:  32.12%
Turn  3:  35.14%
Turn  4:  38.05%
Turn  5:  40.87%

5 academy/tutors:
Turn  1:  34.98%
Turn  2:  38.55%
Turn  3:  41.97%
Turn  4:  45.23%
Turn  5:  48.34%

6 academy/tutors:
Turn  1:  40.51%
Turn  2:  44.44%
Turn  3:  48.14%
Turn  4:  51.64%
Turn  5:  54.93%


My sharuum also runs tainted pact. There should be about a 5.59% of drawing that by turn 2 (the first relevant turn) in the deck when also not getting any other relevant tutor (not considering mystical tutor in that figure due to a change in my playstyle in that situation). Since it's rather tedious to try to calculate the probabilities out for that particular card... I'll just note that most of it's relevance is significant.
Of course, I run half snow-covered and half normal basic lands in order to dodge wake of destructions and optimize the chance of a successful tainted pact...

This also doesn't include Mystic Speculation or Impulse. Or similar cards for others' decks.

Out of the tutors used in my deck, the tainted pact, academy itself, and all but the tolaria west all have a tutor cost of under 3.

(obviously, this is all pre-removal of Academy)

That should give a good idea of how often certain cards in general - when actually desired - show up in EDH. At least, for a deck running black tutors.


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-21 6:55 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jun-20 4:11 pm
Age: Hatchling
Cervid wrote:
mayonaise wrote:
since its restricted to 1 what are the odds to have it in early-game? :facepalm:


Very, very good, with the various ways to tutor for it...


Given. Yet artifacts are required to make use of TA. Tolarian Academy's ability still is conditional theres no point of banning Tolarian. Do you also mean to tutor all artifacts in your deck? If its way to easy to tutor this card because you hated it too much why not ban all cheap tutors they are all cause of early combos.


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-21 7:49 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
the problem is banning land tutors is that many many decks run those same tutors for mana fixing, and if you gank the mana fixing tutors in a highlander format ... urg ... talk about an unplayable format.

As for not getting artifact, or having artifacts if you've got t's academy you also have blue, the color of artifact tutor.

:P I'm sad to see it go, but I also know how many games I won on the back of myr matrix and academy.

Personally I thought that academy was in check until they printed expedition map, then it became way easier to get .. with jank tutors like trinket mage and tezzeret.

All in all I'm sad to see it go but not all that surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-21 9:35 pm 

Joined: 2008-Dec-12 8:52 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Mayonaise

Have you ever seen a turn 1 mana crypt, swamp, mana vault, cast and break expedition map for academy, then turn two vampiric tutor for thirst for knowledge, play top, play academy, turn three thirst for knowledge, etc.,etc.,etc.? I have, and then I immediately pooped and a five player game ended two turns later. It was funny as hell, but I won't miss Tolarian Academy.

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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-21 10:19 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jun-20 4:11 pm
Age: Hatchling
So should I be saying good bye TA for EDH already? :facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-22 12:31 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
There's enough potential for wrecking a game early to offset the randomness of having it, which actually isn't that random as SweetRein pointed out, especially with more and more tutors available to go get it.

The other land that is as close to the busted power of TA is Gaea's Cradle and that takes a lot longer to set up and is far more conditional with the same number of answers available.

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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-22 3:09 am 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
Jukren54 wrote:
The other land that is as close to the busted power of TA is Gaea's Cradle and that takes a lot longer to set up and is far more conditional with the same number of answers available.

GC is also a super forest, versus TA which is a super island. As we all know Islands > Forests

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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-22 5:17 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Boshea wrote:
As we all know Islands > Forests


As much as I hate to admit it, this is very true, and one of the most frustrating parts about Magic for me. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 12:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jun-24 12:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Sid the Chicken wrote:
mayonaise wrote:
Besides there are Strip mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, etc... for this.

The argument "that nasty card can be killed with this other card" is very very very very rarely a legitimate argument against the power level of the first card. Anything CAN be answered. Somehow. Rofellos has been re-banned as a general. By your logic, it doesn't need to be because people run spot creature removal.


But rofelloes isnt banned from play just as a general so your argument is a moot point. academy has no us being banned . now all versions of artifact decks that aren't arcum cant compete against decks like omnath or zur the enchanter. i understand that everyone loves zur but having someone that tutors every turn for free with no penalties is more game balanced then 4 or 5 blue mana? with rofellos it was infinite mana advantage, same with omnath, accept omnath is faster and harder to beat. I'm guessing the people who make this list don't own academy's and therefor banned it for hate not actual balance reasons. people that play academy's don't need to play eldrazi. but now people that play mana excel get to without penalty making omnath easily the best deck in EDH.


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 Post subject: Re: Tolarian Academy banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 5:09 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
mayonaise wrote:
Why have to banned Tolarian Academy? I believe there are more cards need to look at aside from Tolarian... Besides there are Strip mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, etc... for this. And I dont agree that "it fuels easy early-game super-production of mana." since its restricted to 1 what are the odds to have it in early-game? :facepalm:


proofreading: do a little bit more of it (just a little bit.)
what are the odds of having it: pretty good with all the tutoring.

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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