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 Post subject: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 8:31 am 

Joined: 2010-May-13 8:13 am
Age: Hatchling
Hi, first time poster, long time EDHer.

So, in a singleton format, where the point is "one of every card" is Spawnsire of Ulamog's ability legal in any way? Wishes don't work because there aren't/should be sideboards in the first place. But what's this? Spawnsire's ability is not only allowed, but it's not even limited to one copy of each Eldrazi spell it casts. Seems a bit ridiculous to me.....

If the cards that are currently banned are banned because they make the game unfun/degenerate/not fair, then how can this have been legal for a second? We're already seeing Turn 2 Channel> win the game. Also, if it's even turn 6 of 7 and they can cast him and he resolves with enough mana, (which, let's face it, 20 mana is no big deal with Academy/Cradle/Rofellos) it's good game. One spell wins the game, hands down.

Sure, I've heard the complaints "it'll make you a target" or "you'll never get the mana". Are we playing the same game? Everyone is often the threat and someone is bound to win, but it shouldn't be this easy.

Do something about it or at least PRETEND to do something about it, but it needs to be dealt with.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 9:54 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
After searching the rules for "wish" the only example is getting cards from the sideboard. If people played wishes in my group we'd let them go get any card they wanted so long as it met the deck construction rules, I believe.

Plus, spending 20 mana on plopping a ton of Eldrazi into play is a totally awesome way to win the game. What exactly are you complaining about?

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 10:26 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The Doctor wrote:
If the cards that are currently banned are banned because they make the game unfun/degenerate/not fair, then how can this have been legal for a second? We're already seeing Turn 2 Channel> win the game.


I have to agree with Artos. Spending 20 mana is a good way to win the game, there is no problem here. If, however, Channel is causing people to play this card too early, then Channel is likely the problem not Spawnsire of Ulamog.

The fact that the spawnsire can grab multiple copies of the same card and put them into play is not-format breaking since in a normal game of magic (with 60 card decks, like Standard), you could theoretically drop eight copies of one of the non-legendary Eldrazi creatures and get away with that too.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 10:53 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
As far as I know wishes are completely legal. The idea that a wish only gets cards from your sideboard only applies to tournament games, not casual play, because that rule is a DCI tournament rule and not part of the comp rules. Otherwise people at tourneys would show up with a binder full of silver bullets for every conceivable situation and things would get stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 12:09 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
Spawnsire's ability is only as powerful as the eldrazi you are not running. If an Eldrazi is in your deck then it can't be in your sideboard. Even in casual you'd technically only be able to pull one of any Eldrazi not currently in your deck.

So to pull of some crazy turn 2 drop every Eldrazi printed play then the only Eldrazi in your deck would be the Spawnsire.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 12:34 pm 

Joined: 2010-May-13 8:13 am
Age: Hatchling
So you're telling me people actually play EDH with sideboards instead of just building a solid deck? Seems somewhat counter productive. Build a good, threatening, fun deck that has ways to deal with threats IN it, not afterward. Anyway, the odds of drawing the useful sideboard cards against any given deck in a 99 card deck are ridiculous.

The problem is there aren't any "sanctioned" EDH events, because they don't exist. right now they CAN'T exist. So people would only be pulling from their binders.

Keep in mind, there are So many ways to produce 20(30) mana in one turn. You all make it sound like being able to do it means you should automatically win the game. I don't feel the same way, nor do I believe that's how most of the EDH community feels.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 1:09 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Okay, this post may be outdated but when I first joined the forums, Cervid and I had a debate about wishes, whereby he posted this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1885&start=0

If you read the whole topic you'll see that officially wishes aren't supported in EDH at all. This is straight from Sheldon's mouth. Quote for those who don't want to read the thread:

Quote:
Officially, you can only Wish for something that's been RFG'd in this game.

In your local group, feel free to do what you want to--just make sure everyone agrees so there are no arguments.'
- Sheldon

Basically, to break it down:

1) EDH "officially" doesn't support sideboards. So regardless of whether you are participating in a tournament or not, you can't wish out of a sideboard that you don't have. If you use the optional sideboard rule with your group, this changes things.

2) EDH "officially" doesn't support you fetching cards outside the current game in any form, even in casual games. This is because wishes would become auto-staples in every deck and hyper powerful (confirmed in the thread by Sheldon).

3) EDH "officially" lets you use wishes to fetch cards that are in the RFG zone. That's it.

AFAIK "officially" the same should apply to Spawnsire and how I interpreted the card the first time I saw it.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 2:14 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-18 5:21 am
Age: Wyvern
Who said wishes aren't legal? Judges wished in Atlanta all the time (mostly to point and laugh when Mindbreak Trap stopped your degenerate deck, but still). I assume its the same way for getting eldrazi, though you'd have to play all of them in your board to make that card good, and I'd rather just cast a better eldrazi to begin with.

PS - Obviously Spawnsire can only get 1 of anything that's not in your deck if that's mainly what you wanted to address. Tell anyone whining otherwise to play a format that doesn't restrict everything to 1.

PPS - Sideboard discussion probably goes in another thread altogether.


Last edited by Itsapaul on 2010-May-13 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 2:18 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
From the Optional Rules for EDH:
Quote:
* Players may bring a 10 card sideboard in addition to their 99 cards and 1 General.
* After generals are announced, players have 3 minutes to make 1-for-1 substitutions to their deck.
* Any cards not played as part of the deck may be retrieved by "wishes".

Spawnsire can "officially" fetch anything from your sideboard. Obviously you can't have more than one copy of any given card in your sideboard. If you're not using this rule, then it's up to your playgroup what you can get.

Why having a sideboard isn't ridiculous: Darkblast is a terrible card in the vast majority of EDH games. But when you sit down at a table and see that someone's playing Rofellos, Darkblast gets a lot better. You've got tutors to fetch your Darkblast, and if that's not enough then you can SB in Disfigure and Afflict as well. Sideboards in EDH, as in any format, are for specialized answers that aren't good enough to make the maindeck.

You say there are a lot of ways to produce 20-30 mana in a single turn. There are even more ways to win a game once you have the mana, and they're much less complicated. You're freaking out about just one of the bajillion-mana win conditions.

And as Artos said, dropping all of the Eldrazi onto the table is an awesome way to win. I'm definitely going to be playing Spawnsire in my Karn deck and carrying around an Eldrazi sideboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 2:21 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Itsapaul wrote:
Who said wishes aren't legal? Judges wished in Atlanta all the time (mostly to point and laugh when Mindbreak Trap stopped your degenerate deck, but still). I assume its the same way for getting eldrazi, though you'd have to play all of them in your board to make that card good, and I'd rather just cast a better eldrazi to begin with.

PS - Obviously Spawnsire can only get 1 of anything that's not in your deck if that's mainly what you wanted to address. Tell anyone whining otherwise to play a format that doesn't restrict everything to 1.


Not sure what context your speaking in, but Wishes can only officially fetch cards that have been RFG'd from the game.

What Atlanta does, in regards to banning Uril or allowing wishes to be used outside the above, is Atlanta's business.

Once again, AFAIK, this is the offcial stance. It means nothing in relation to what different groups actually use, that's up to each and every play group.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 2:25 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Fun fact about wishes from the Gatherer ruling on Cunning Wish:
Quote:
You can't acquire exiled cards because those cards are still in one of the game's zones.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 2:49 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
paperwarrior wrote:
Fun fact about wishes from the Gatherer ruling on Cunning Wish:
Quote:
You can't acquire exiled cards because those cards are still in one of the game's zones.


The official rules from gatherer on most wishes also say that outside of tournaments you can fetch any card "outside" of the game.

As detailed in the thread I linked, this appears to not be the case in relation to "EDH" according to Sheldon.

So at this point I'm not sure what to say unless someone from the RC comes in and clarifies.

It was largely concluded though that wishes for the most part unless using the optional sideboard rule, are basically useless in EDH. Otherwise everyone would be using them as super tutors.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 4:49 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Itsapaul wrote:
PS - Obviously Spawnsire can only get 1 of anything that's not in your deck if that's mainly what you wanted to address. Tell anyone whining otherwise to play a format that doesn't restrict everything to 1.


I don't think this is clear at all. The rules talk about deck construction. Grabbing cards outside of the game with Spawnsire would seem to fall into the same category as tokens. Neither are actually part of your deck (even if the token generator is part of your deck, the tokens it generate are not), so they wouldn't be restricted by the one-of rule.

Pysces wrote:
As detailed in the thread I linked, this appears to not be the case in relation to "EDH" according to Sheldon.


This does not appear in the rules of the format as listed at the top of this forum, and if this ruling was done prior to M10 it would probably not be relevant anymore.

Pysces wrote:
So at this point I'm not sure what to say unless someone from the RC comes in and clarifies.


I would say that when a ruling is not clear, always default to the rules as defined in a regular game of MtG, which in the case of wishes and spawnsire would be that you can't grabbed exiled cards, if you are in a tournament you can only grab cards from your sideboard, and if you are playing a casual game, bring your binder or a stack of cards. Don't be surprised though if in a casual game you take ten minutes to look through your stack of cards each time you cast a wish that people don't want to play with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 5:07 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
My only argument against that cheethorne is that there already is a precedent set against wishes.

Nobody loads their list with wishes, which means at some point it has been widely acknowledged that they do not function in a way that would make them staples in any list.

There are plenty of cutthroat lists and players that would jump at the chance to run wishes in a non-tournament setting, yet no one does where I play (and if they do, we have been correcting them that they do not work that way by official rules) and I don't see it much anywhere else in lists on this forum.

It's clear to me, clarfication is needed. I'm also not aware what the rules update of M10 have to do with this.

We've been asking for the wish rule to be listed under the rules section a few times now. Some of the reasons I remembered why it hasn't been put up, is it was considered "pretty intuitive" which once again appears not to be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-13 5:29 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
If wishes work to fetch exiled cards, I am all over using Burning Wish to Yawgmoth's Will twice.

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