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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 10:37 am 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
paperwarrior wrote:
Are you supposed to play around Coalition Victory every time someone plays a five-color general? Staff of Domination combos with Rofellos, and Mind Over Matter combos with Niv-Mizzet and Azami, Lady of Scrolls (and Arcanis I guess), but when someone plays one of those guys as a general you know to look out for the combos. I don't particularly want to live in fear every time a Sliver Queen/Reaper King/Cromat deck drops a dual land or plays Kodama's Reach.

What are the other many, many cards that fit in this category? I can only think of Curiosity and Obsidian Eye.

Off the top of my head, you could include Mana Echoes with Sliver Queen, Darkest Hour with Teysa, Umbral Mantle with Rofellos, Sculpting Steel with Sharuum, and Runes of the Deus with Uril.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 11:19 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Does Darkest Hour even work with Teysa? It reads that all creatures are black, not that all creatures are black in addition to their other colors. Shouldn't that mean that there are never any white creatures to sacrifice? It isn't Painter's Servant, which doesn't affect the original color(s) of things.

Edit: Ah, yes. I'm not wrong, it's just that the "combo" with DH is to have infi chump blockers/Skullclamp food. It doesn't ever let you use the exile ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 12:01 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
coalition victory and it's brothers on the banned list biorythm and sway of the stars

Are on the banned list ( in my opinion ) not because they're omg broken, but because they make a group game end in a groan worthy senerio. They warp the format so that folks start to "have to run" blue.

if you're playing 5 color good stuff, you don't need thid it doesn't add anything to your deck other than, another way to win off your dreamhalled conflux :P


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 1:33 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-10 2:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
odit wrote:
coalition victory and it's brothers on the banned list biorythm and sway of the stars

Are on the banned list ( in my opinion ) not because they're omg broken, but because they make a group game end in a groan worthy senerio. They warp the format so that folks start to "have to run" blue.

if you're playing 5 color good stuff, you don't need thid it doesn't add anything to your deck other than, another way to win off your dreamhalled conflux :P


This is exactly the mentality I don't understand though. Aren't infi Time Warp/Stretch or Staff of Domination wins groan worthy as well? This is the same problem I have with Metalworker: the ban list that's been concocted has no consistency to it, except maybe cost of cards. And even that I'm not sure about, because of Library of Alexandria/Moat. The argument "it combos with just your general" doesn't hold any water to me, because there's so many cards that combo with a general (as have been demonstrated in this thread). So that leaves "unfun" which is obviously subjective, but as I said I don't see how ending the game immediately isn't preferable to watching someone jerk off their Staff of Domination. And "just scoop them up when they go off" isn't a rebuttal to that, because that's *exactly* what you do when CV wins the game.

I used to play very very few counterspells, because I didn't need them in my playgroup. But shortly before Rise came out, more and more groan cards/combos started to show up in previously "fair" decks (yeah, Jhoira used to be fair in our group), plus new decks that were basically "groan" decks. Now I feel like I'm being forced into running a bunch more counterspells just to keep up and control the game, or run more combo in my decks to try and outrace them. Either way, our meta is warping because there's so many broken things to do in the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 1:56 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think the difference is infi timewarp combo's are defeated by multiple colors. As are staff things.

Using your example what really changed with Rise ?
Some big guys with anhilator got printed, and green got a bit of a boost.

In my play group we dorked around with Rise and decided that Emrakul wasn't going to be played, not that he's not super sexy cool, but because once he hit play the game ended.

Anyway we figured that out after a pile of play testing, how much testing have you done with CV ? how often are you able to get it to resolve ? How often can the table respond ?

Every play group is different, some folks really like to watch the game swing back and forth for an hour or 2, some folks like the game to end very quickly.

As to metal worker vs every other mass mana producer, the ability to produce 8~12( or 14 ) mana turn 2 is what got him banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 2:06 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
To acknowledge that there are many other cards that can do similar things at a similar power level with the same effect on the game and then say that Coalition Victory is less fun than all of those cards seems far too subjective to be a valid warrant to ban it universally (as opposed to banning it locally in your own playgroup). So I feel like there must be something more than just pure power level at work here.

Normally EDH relies on social pressure to combat unfun play. For many people, Decree of Annihilation is much less fun than a spell that just ends the game. But that's not something the RC sees necessary to enforce with a banning. So why is CV different?

(Also, you don't need a counterspell to deal with CV. Any instant-speed bounce or removal in response will do the trick, as will nonbasic land hate to disrupt the 5C deck's manabase. Oh and Moonlace, which is tech. So it's only really green that can't deal with it easily, and I think we accept that there are a lot of things that green can't deal with.)


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 2:21 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
odit wrote:
As to metal worker vs every other mass mana producer, the ability to produce 8~12( or 14 ) mana turn 2 is what got him banned.


Why should a card be banned for a theoretical god draw scenario that happens probably .000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the time?

Metalworker is inferior to both Rofellos and Tolarian Academy, yet it's Metalworker that's banned and the other two are free to run amok.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 2:41 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ways to drop metal worker turn 1 without losing a huge pile of cards
Mishra's workshop
Mana vault + any land
Mana crypt + any land
( there are alot more but they lose card economy and wouldn't be in a deck with metal worker , both the allowed mox's lotus petal , dark ritual etc )
+ a metal worker

This thread isn't about metal worker it has it's own ... but metal worker is super economy early in the game, the others take more time to set up. If metal worker had some dumb restriction like can not be played withing the first 7 turns of the game it would never even be brought up as an issue in my view.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 2:49 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mono green has answers to both infi time warping, and staff of domination though :P

Also I think you're being a bit short sighted on the general choices for testing. If I was going to test CV to see how much I could break it I'd run Progenitus as the general.

Instant lando is not really an option to stop CV as anyone that casts it on a single land type with open strip / waste land is an idiot.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 2:53 pm 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
Age: Drake
odit wrote:
Ways to drop metal worker turn 1 without losing a huge pile of cards
Mishra's workshop
Mana vault + any land
Mana crypt + any land
( there are alot more but they lose card economy and wouldn't be in a deck with metal worker , both the allowed mox's lotus petal , dark ritual etc )
+ a metal worker


I would like to add a couple that does show up in a deck where metalworker would:
City of Traitors + Sol Ring
Ancient Tomb + Sol Ring
Crystal Vein + Sol Ring (though far less likely)



On Coalition Victory, I suspect it's one of those relics of "These are the type of cards you probably shouldn't run" as more of a flagbearer card.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 3:33 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
odit, if you want to play Theorymagic with Metalworker, then it's only fair to go:

Mana Crypt + Sol Ring + Tolarian Academy + Windfall or Timetwister
Mana Crypt + Lotus Petal + Tolarian Academy + Windfall or Wheel of Fortune
Mox Diamond + Sol Ring + Grim Monolith + Tolarian Academy + Time Spiral

If you allow for Academy to be dropped turn 2 (so it produces mana the exact same turn as a theoretical turn 1 Metalworker would), then the possibilities only get even more ridiculous.

Because Academy can potentially have such broken starts, does that mean it should be banned? No, it shouldn't, and Metalworker shouldn't be banned right now because of this reason. You don't evaluate brokenness in the theoretical god hands that almost never pop up.

You're also assuming as if Metalworker is your general, which is obviously isn't. It's a singleton card, buried deep in your deck. The chances of getting an opening hand Metalworker are very rare; the chance of getting him out on turn 1 is even *more* scarce. Conversely, Rofellos will always hit play on turn 2. Every time.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 6:15 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
To get back on topic:
troacctid wrote:
Off the top of my head, you could include Mana Echoes with Sliver Queen, Darkest Hour with Teysa, Umbral Mantle with Rofellos, Sculpting Steel with Sharuum, and Runes of the Deus with Uril.

Mana Echoes+Sliver Queen: requires a combat step and something that grants haste, otherwise everyone gets a turn to deal with it at sorcery speed.
Darkest Hour+Teysa: even if it did what Painter's Servant did it's only board control.
Umbral Mantle+Rofellos: requires an actual kill card to take out a whole table, otherwise it requires a combat step, can be chumped and only kills one player.
Sculpting Steel+Sharuum: doesn't actually do anything on its own.
Runes of the Deus+Uril: requires a combat step, can possibly be blocked (more difficult than Rofellos+Mantle), only kills one player.

I'm talking about cards that require only your general in play (getting a land of each type is really a negligible requirement) and that end the game outright, so again I ask what are the "many cards" that do the same thing as CV?

In any case, these other cards combo with certain generals. If I'm playing against Rofellos/Niv/Azami, I'll be looking out for these specific cards. It's not as much fun making sure someone can answer a Staff of Domination whenever Rofellos is out, but since it only happens with that one general I'm okay with it. Coalition Victory greatly increases the number of generals that cause that kind of situation, and that's why I think it should stay banned.


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