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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 9:05 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Wishes/Spawnsire do not work in 'official' EDH. The ruling quoted earlier was from before the Exile zone existed. If your group wants to let you get stuff out of your binder, that's up to you all, but don't expect to go to an EDH event of any kind and have them work.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 9:07 am 
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Sheldon wrote:
Wishes/Spawnsire do not work in 'official' EDH. The ruling quoted earlier was from before the Exile zone existed. If your group wants to let you get stuff out of your binder, that's up to you all, but don't expect to go to an EDH event of any kind and have them work.

Okay then, noted. Are you going to update the rules to reflect this? It would sure help prevent these threads from happening again.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 2:07 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
yawg07 wrote:
Okay then, noted. Are you going to update the rules to reflect this? It would sure help prevent these threads from happening again.

It's more than just helpful, it's necessary. Right now, there's no reason why the Oracle ruling doesn't apply to EDH, meaning you can get any card from your collection with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 3:07 pm 
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Location: New Zealand
Woohoo! I'm not crazy!

*does a dance*

But yes, rules update please! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 10:03 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
intreped wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
Okay then, noted. Are you going to update the rules to reflect this? It would sure help prevent these threads from happening again.

It's more than just helpful, it's necessary. Right now, there's no reason why the Oracle ruling doesn't apply to EDH, meaning you can get any card from your collection with them.


In sanctioned events, wishes just go to get sidwboard or RFG cards. The binder thing is cool in casual, but I can see "hold on a minute, I've got it somewhere" situations being sucktacular for the rest of the table. If you're just playing with a binder next to you so that doesn't happen, you're just running a HUGE sideboard with way too many wishes. But hey, do whatever your playgroup wants.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 5:02 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-19 10:00 pm
Age: Drake
I agree that the official rules page should be updated.

I would also appreciate a further explanation on why wishes/spawnsire don't work in EDH. The easiest, most logical thing for me would be to allow them to work like in normal magic, where the cards come from the SB. Since we have rules for a SB, more information on why these cards are so bad for EDH would be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 5:29 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sheldon wrote:
Wishes/Spawnsire do not work in 'official' EDH. The ruling quoted earlier was from before the Exile zone existed. If your group wants to let you get stuff out of your binder, that's up to you all, but don't expect to go to an EDH event of any kind and have them work.

And what is 'official' EDH? EDH is a casual format by nature. Wishes work as printed in other casual formats, so this ruling either means that wishes/spawnsire need to be put on the banned list, OR this ruling needs to make into the play rules with the caveat that they can fetch sideboard cards if those optional rules are used.
zimagic wrote:
In a sanctioned event, a card that's "outside the game" is one that's in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection.

Again, this is how wishes work everywhere else, which is why it needs to be in the rules if they're going to work differently.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 10:18 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Wishes/Spawnsire do not work in 'official' EDH. The ruling quoted earlier was from before the Exile zone existed. If your group wants to let you get stuff out of your binder, that's up to you all, but don't expect to go to an EDH event of any kind and have them work.

And what is 'official' EDH? EDH is a casual format by nature. Wishes work as printed in other casual formats


They really kind of don't. You've just hacked up a bunch of house rules to make them work. If I can get any card from my collection, I presume you're OK with me driving home to get it?

Which is pretty much Sheldon's point: if your casual group wants to establish rules on how you want to handle wishes, then that's fine, but, practically speaking, they don't work very well and showing up to an unknown playgroup assuming that they'll function the way you want them to is asking for bad feelings.

If the tournament is running sideboards, you can generally expect to use Wishes on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 11:12 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
they don't work very well and showing up to an unknown playgroup assuming that they'll function the way you want them to is asking for bad feelings.


Then why not ban them except when the optional sideboard rule is used? That would allow someone looking at the rules for the format understand that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 11:16 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
cheethorne wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
they don't work very well and showing up to an unknown playgroup assuming that they'll function the way you want them to is asking for bad feelings.


Then why not ban them except when the optional sideboard rule is used? That would allow someone looking at the rules for the format understand that point.


because, at least in Spawnsire's case, the card does something else rather than just "wish" as does Research//Development


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 11:26 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
papa_funk wrote:
They really kind of don't. You've just hacked up a bunch of house rules to make them work. If I can get any card from my collection, I presume you're OK with me driving home to get it?

I'd be as OK with as I would be if we were playing any other casual format... in your extreme and highly unlikely scenario, no, but if you have one WITH you and in a reasonably accessible place, like a binder vs. stuffed in a 5000 count box or something, then no I don't mind. I think you're kind of confusing house rules with some common etiquette. The same sort of etiquette used when you tutor ahead of time rather than wait for your last opponent's end step to do it (something many an EDH player is comfortable with/encourages).

papa_funk wrote:
Which is pretty much Sheldon's point: if your casual group wants to establish rules on how you want to handle wishes, then that's fine, but, practically speaking, they don't work very well and showing up to an unknown playgroup assuming that they'll function the way you want them to is asking for bad feelings.

This is why I asked what he means by 'official'. If the idea is that you can go as far as your playgroup will allow outside of a tournament or other organized play, and within such organized play wishes go to sideboards only, then that's fine. But making a broad statement like 'wishes don't work in official EDH' without clarifying that further and without any rule on the rules page that supports that is not helpful, because as far as I'm concerned, "Works as printed unless you're in an organized event, in which case sideboard only" is the same as "works as printed".

papa_funk wrote:
If the tournament is running sideboards, you can generally expect to use Wishes on them.

In an organized play setting this is how most people would expect them to function, and also to not be allowed to wish for cards not in said sideboard.

So I'll ask again for one of the following things to happen;
1. Ban wishes/spawnsire
2. Allow them to work as printed
3. Amend the official rules page to address them
Just have a clear position in an easy to find and logical place, not a ruling tucked away in a forum post.

EDIT:
intreped wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
Okay then, noted. Are you going to update the rules to reflect this? It would sure help prevent these threads from happening again.

It's more than just helpful, it's necessary. Right now, there's no reason why the Oracle ruling doesn't apply to EDH, meaning you can get any card from your collection with them.

QFT

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 12:33 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
They really kind of don't. You've just hacked up a bunch of house rules to make them work. If I can get any card from my collection, I presume you're OK with me driving home to get it?

I'd be as OK with as I would be if we were playing any other casual format... in your extreme and highly unlikely scenario, no, but if you have one WITH you and in a reasonably accessible place, like a binder vs. stuffed in a 5000 count box or something, then no I don't mind. I think you're kind of confusing house rules with some common etiquette. The same sort of etiquette used when you tutor ahead of time rather than wait for your last opponent's end step to do it (something many an EDH player is comfortable with/encourages).


There you go, imposing your house rules on me. See the problem?


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 1:29 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
papa_funk wrote:
There you go, imposing your house rules on me. See the problem?

So, just to be clear, the official point of view of the RC on wishes seems to be that they "don't work" in casual games because people might be annoyed at the time it takes to find a card you own from outside the game, making no assumptions on the location of said card or the courtesy of the player of the wish toward the other players. That's fine. I don't object to that.
[beating a dead horse]But you can't just announce that they don't work in a forum thread like this. That's information that should be easy to find that I shouldn't have to keep a close watch on the forums to know about. Because there is no rule in the comp rules or the EDH rules that actually prevents you from running a wish in your deck or using it to obtain any card you own from outside the game (as appropriate for the wish played). The ONLY limiting factor is the approval or disapproval of your fellow players. Therefore, you the RC need to either ban them, add a rule about them to the EDH rules or leave them up to the community at large.[/beating a dead horse]

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 1:50 pm 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
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papa_funk wrote:
There you go, imposing your house rules on me. See the problem?


Etiquette and house rules are different. I don't see the problem, personally.

Even lumping them together, by giving a broad statement of "wishes don't work" based on "A group of situations are commonly disliked by many players caused by them" is the same as saying that "mass land destruction doesn't work".


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 3:34 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
But you can't just announce that they don't work in a forum thread like this. That's information that should be easy to find that I shouldn't have to keep a close watch on the forums to know about. Because there is no rule in the comp rules or the EDH rules that actually prevents you from running a wish in your deck or using it to obtain any card you own from outside the game (as appropriate for the wish played). The ONLY limiting factor is the approval or disapproval of your fellow players. Therefore, you the RC need to either ban them, add a rule about them to the EDH rules or leave them up to the community at large.


Which part of "you're all intelligent people, discuss how you want to handle it with your playgroup" isn't leaving this to the community at large?

Why is there a sudden need to demand emergency rule updates for cards that are 8 years old?

Why does the fact that you don't know what the answer is not suggest that you should ask the person in charge how they want to handle it?

Isn't "The ONLY limiting factor is the approval or disapproval of your fellow players" pretty much the point?


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