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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 10:36 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
I'm not getting this argument.
Why is everyone arguing for a standard of how these work? And why doesn't everyone have the same expectations?
I've said it before, I'll say it again. YOU ARE NOT IN A TOURNAMENT, THEY WORK AS THEY ARE PRINTED!

Why is everyone disputing this so much?
The EDH rules do not incorporate an official 'ruling' on wishes, and you cannot just go by what an RC member said randomly a year ago.
Nothing is stopping you from using them as they are printed; therefore, you use them as they are printed.

As for getting a card you have one of in your deck ... "6. With the exception of basic lands, no two cards in the deck may have the same english name."
Seems like it is not a problem to grab another one from outside your deck. This doesn't happen in a tourney due to the sideboard clause.

And you cannot grab banned cards because the format itself bans them. They aren't just banned from being in your deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 10:49 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
yawg07 wrote:
I'm not getting this argument.
Why is everyone arguing for a standard of how these work? And why doesn't everyone have the same expectations?
I've said it before, I'll say it again. YOU ARE NOT IN A TOURNAMENT, THEY WORK AS THEY ARE PRINTED!

Why is everyone disputing this so much?
The EDH rules do not incorporate an official 'ruling' on wishes, and you cannot just go by what an RC member said randomly a year ago.
Nothing is stopping you from using them as they are printed; therefore, you use them as they are printed.

As for getting a card you have one of in your deck ... "6. With the exception of basic lands, no two cards in the deck may have the same english name."
Seems like it is not a problem to grab another one from outside your deck. This doesn't happen in a tourney due to the sideboard clause.

And you cannot grab banned cards because the format itself bans them. They aren't just banned from being in your deck.


After that injection of rationality I'm hedging my bets on at least another 3 pages.

Don't try Yawg, those that agree with you get it, those that don't are doing everything in their power not to.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 11:00 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
zimagic wrote:
Don't try Yawg, those that agree with you get it, those that don't are doing everything in their power not to.


I definitely "get it", but I have noticed that the common belief is that "wishes don't work in EDH". This likely stems from the fact that at one point this was stated in the rules, and then Sheldon's comment about it being removed from the rules, but that EDH is "the same as other constructed formats" and the wish rule's inclusion being redundant. It would be nice to have something current to point to that says, one way or another, how the RC feels wishes should function in EDH. That way if I show up with a Burning Wish in my Wort deck, or someone shows up with a wish in their deck, I can point to something, rather than having what obviously could turn into a lengthy debate (as this thread proves).

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EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 11:31 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Cervid wrote:
zimagic wrote:
Don't try Yawg, those that agree with you get it, those that don't are doing everything in their power not to.


I definitely "get it", but I have noticed that the common belief is that "wishes don't work in EDH". This likely stems from the fact that at one point this was stated in the rules, and then Sheldon's comment about it being removed from the rules, but that EDH is "the same as other constructed formats" and the wish rule's inclusion being redundant. It would be nice to have something current to point to that says, one way or another, how the RC feels wishes should function in EDH. That way if I show up with a Burning Wish in my Wort deck, or someone shows up with a wish in their deck, I can point to something, rather than having what obviously could turn into a lengthy debate (as this thread proves).


Cervid, you've been on these boards a long time, you've seen the arguaments here and the comments by the RC. You get it for everything else, I've seen it myself, but on this you're refusing to just accept that it's a casual format and you can do whatever the hell you want. Why is that?

If you're playing pick-up games and you want to play Wishes, just go for it. If it doesn't end the game there and then, it's really not an issue. If it DOES, just swap them out for another card in the return game if that's a problem for someone.

Really, everyone, what's the big hoo-ha here? Why does this need to be rubber-stamped by the RC? You do what you want if you're not in a league or other competitive enviornment, in which case you follow the house rules. If the house rules hasn't ruled on it, ask them to do so or just run the cards yourselves. Or not.

These cards are 8 years old. The M10 rules changes are a year old. Why is it such an issue now? Spawnsire? >pffft!<*


*That's french for [bad monty python fake French accent] "Zis seely sing? HA! I wave my underarm in it's general direction!"[/bad monty python fake French accent]

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Current decks:
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Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 12:38 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
The reason everyone treats wishes as a 'sideboard' thing is just because everyone is used to their normal applications in tournament play.
But everyone has got to remember something. Unless you are in an EDH tournament ... EDH is not serious business.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 2:34 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
I just don't want anyone using Burning Wish as an extra copy of Time Stretch, because that would be lame. Likewise, I'm never going to fetch more than one of any eldrazi with Spawnsire of Ulamog, not because the rules specifically prohibit it but because I think that goes against the spirit of the format. Getting 35 Ulamog's Crushers would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

On the other hand, grabbing a Cruel Ultimatum for you Niv deck and playing it with Mycosynth Lattice is sweet.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 4:54 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
paperwarrior wrote:
I just don't want anyone using Burning Wish as an extra copy of Time Stretch, because that would be lame. Likewise, I'm never going to fetch more than one of any eldrazi with Spawnsire of Ulamog, not because the rules specifically prohibit it but because I think that goes against the spirit of the format. Getting 35 Ulamog's Crushers would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

On the other hand, grabbing a Cruel Ultimatum for you Niv deck and playing it with Mycosynth Lattice is sweet.


Exactly

x2

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 7:57 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
I'm not a fan of grabbing Cruel Ultimatum for a Niv deck. I agree that it feels less wrong than grabbing 10,000 Emrakul, but it's still icky to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 8:46 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
10,000 Emrakul w/Mirror Gallery out ... *droooooooool*

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 1:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
I'll just say that I agree with Pysces. Whether or not wishes are technically legal, I think it's clear that Wishes are too strong if used with a competitive mindset. Sure, in completely casual games they're fine, but be honest--anything is fine in that environment.

In my playgroups, we play very competitively, because that's how we have the most fun. I also play a lot of 1v1 EDH, which tends to be similarly competitive.

I have never had anyone try to play a Wish against me, probably because we all have an intuitive understanding that they should not work in EDH. If someone does try to play one against me, I would not let them.

Of course, I know that EDH is intended to be a casual, carebear format, and that you can do anything you want in a casual format, but I think that's missing the point. If you're playing "anything goes" games because you trust everyone in your group to be casual and "fun," then why do you care what the official rules say in the first place?


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 2:32 am 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
Age: Drake
20, Win a lengthy argument: You win the game.


Personally, I tend to avoid grabbing more than one of a single eldrazi with spawnsire. However, that is mostly because it avoids arguments rather than me believing that is how it's supposed to be. I get to play the most at conventions and thus try to avoid the most common disagreements. :(

If someone pulled multiple tentacruel or a stack of inversions on me with a spawnsire, I wouldn't mind. It'd be like losing to a door to nothingness but much more amusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 3:21 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Intereting thought:

Spawnsire, when played in any other format increases your deck size by X where X is the number of Eldrazi cards you find. In Standard/Vintage/whatever you go from having a 60-card, legal deck to having a 65/70-card, legal deck.

In EDH, you would have a 99 + General + X illegal deck as the format restricts the maximum as well as the minimum deck size.

This is quite apart from the sideboard optional arguament as all SB-ing is done between games and a 100 card legal deck must still be presented for the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 3:56 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
The legal deck is presented for the game. It then stops being a "deck" and becomes a "library," and it's okay for the total number of cards to change.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 6:45 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
intreped wrote:
The legal deck is presented for the game. It then stops being a "deck" and becomes a "library," and it's okay for the total number of cards to change.


Good point, it was only a suggestion.

On the other hand, we could just apply the Oracle rulings and be done with it. Here's the Golden Wish one, update on 10/1/2009:

Quote:
In a sanctioned event, a card that's "outside the game" is one that's in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection.


I'm probably being thick here, but what is everyone's issue with this? Seems pretty clear to me.

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Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 7:15 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
zimagic wrote:
I'm probably being thick here, but what is everyone's issue with this? Seems pretty clear to me.


Like I said before, probably the only reason this is being discussed at all is because it used to be in the rules that wishes didn't work in EDH. When it was removed from the rules, Sheldon stated it was done because it was redundant, meaning that nothing had really changed.

That's why there is confusion, and that's why I think it would be fantastic to get clarification from the RC.

_________________
EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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