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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 5:07 am 
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Pysces wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Quote:
Off the top of my head, I'd say no, simply to prevent exactly what you're talking about. If you're using the alternate SB rule, then once the game starts, the SB is no longer "part of the game/match," and the cards that you've sided out aren't available to you.

Sideboards were considered when Sheldon made that statement, but he did say "Off the top of my head". So again, clarification needed.

Again, this would be a direct violation of the rules of magic - the sideboard would be available to you specifically because it is not part of the game/match.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 8:23 am 
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cheethorne wrote:
niheloim wrote:
because its a singleton format.


I don't see people having a problem when I play Siege-Gang Commander and drop three 1/1 tokens. They all have the same name, same stats, and can be represented by three identical appearing cards (say from M10). I don't see it as being that much different. Sure, technically there are major differences between a token and an actual card, but if you really want to talk about the theories of a "singleton" format, those differences probably don't matter too much.


I am pretty sure that somewhere in the comp rules it says that you cannot wish for a card that will make you have an illegal deck, thus you cannot wish for more than one copy of any card and for 0 copies of anything that you are already running. This could even be used to argue that wishing isnt possible at all in EDH with the maximum deck size, however it clearly makes it illegal to have more copies of a card in your deck that allowed by your current format (4 for normal magic, 1 for EDH)

If you REALLY want I can sift through the whole comp rules and find it, but I really dont want to work at it that hard

-Shoe


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 9:16 am 
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Shoe3 wrote:
I am pretty sure that somewhere in the comp rules it says that you cannot wish for a card that will make you have an illegal deck

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I have confirmed this by opening the comp rules and doing searches for the words wish, illegal, and outside and reading all the relevant sections. There is no mention of such a rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 9:29 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Shoe3 wrote:
I am pretty sure that somewhere in the comp rules it says that you cannot wish for a card that will make you have an illegal deck

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I have confirmed this by opening the comp rules and doing searches for the words wish, illegal, and outside and reading all the relevant sections. There is no mention of such a rule.


I guess so, the rule i am thinking of is from an old version of the tournament floor rules (pre m10).

Of course, by using just the comp rules you could build a 3 card deck. Sounds like this IS something we need to cover in the EDH rules since we don't use any of the Tournament floor rules


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 10:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
cheethorne wrote:
niheloim wrote:
because its a singleton format.


I don't see people having a problem when I play Siege-Gang Commander and drop three 1/1 tokens. They all have the same name, same stats, and can be represented by three identical appearing cards (say from M10). I don't see it as being that much different. Sure, technically there are major differences between a token and an actual card, but if you really want to talk about the theories of a "singleton" format, those differences probably don't matter too much.

I would love to talk about the "theories" of a singleton format.

Siege-gang is a single card that produces multiple creatures. Its the effect of an ability that does not require I run multiples of an actual magic card.

The ability of Spawnsire allows me to play actual magic cards, and when I begin to play multiples of an actual magic card in a singleton format I feel that this is contrary to the format. Groups are allowed to do as they like, but I think there are more style points to be earned by playing 1 of each of the eldrazi not currently in my deck should I get Spawnsire to go off.

As for the rules of wishing and making a deck illegal from previous posts. The rules of deck construction prevent you from wishing for something that would make your deck illegal. You can't wish for a 5th copy of a card from your sideboard because you aren't allowed to have a 5th copy in the side. In EDH there is no official governance over a SB, which is where the problem comes in. If you were playing in an organized EDH event that allowed them, I'm pretty certain they would fall under the same rules for deck construction- meaning singleton in nature, colors match the deck/general.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 10:10 am 
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Shoe3 wrote:
Of course, by using just the comp rules you could build a 3 card deck. Sounds like this IS something we need to cover in the EDH rules since we don't use any of the Tournament floor rules

Assuming they actually want to change something about the way wishes/spawnsire work, then yes.

As the rules stand now, they are legal and can get any legal target you own. Period. This is not a gray area or open to interpretation. No rule says you CAN'T, therefore, you CAN because the cards say you can. You can institute local bans, local wishboard rules, or petition the RC to do away with them in EDH, but as of right now, there is nothing that prevents them from working.

Niheloim wrote:
The rules of deck construction prevent you from wishing for something that would make your deck illegal.

Actually they don't. The tournament floor rules prevent this from happening in a sanctioned event because you are not allowed to go hit your trade binder in the middle of a PTQ to wish something out of it. You are correct that an EDH sideboard should never contain copies of cards in the maindeck, nor cards that could not have been included in the main deck, but that does NOT prevent players in a casual non-sanctioned game from getting anything they own. (I would consider any organized EDH tourney/league "sanctioned" for purposes of this discussion, even though there is no official sanctioning body for EDH, these are organized play, as opposed to grabbing a bunch of friends who happen to be there and starting a game).

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 11:41 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Pysces wrote:
Okay, this post may be outdated but when I first joined the forums, Cervid and I had a debate about wishes, whereby he posted this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1885&start=0

If you read the whole topic you'll see that officially wishes aren't supported in EDH at all. This is straight from Sheldon's mouth. Quote for those who don't want to read the thread:

Quote:
Officially, you can only Wish for something that's been RFG'd in this game.

In your local group, feel free to do what you want to--just make sure everyone agrees so there are no arguments.'
- Sheldon

Basically, to break it down:

1) EDH "officially" doesn't support sideboards. So regardless of whether you are participating in a tournament or not, you can't wish out of a sideboard that you don't have. If you use the optional sideboard rule with your group, this changes things.

2) EDH "officially" doesn't support you fetching cards outside the current game in any form, even in casual games. This is because wishes would become auto-staples in every deck and hyper powerful (confirmed in the thread by Sheldon).

3) EDH "officially" lets you use wishes to fetch cards that are in the RFG zone. That's it.

AFAIK "officially" the same should apply to Spawnsire and how I interpreted the card the first time I saw it.


Sheldon's ruling is pre-M10 rules. Wishes can not get Exiled Cards, so #3 no longer applies.

As to casual groups, Sheldon's point was that it's up to the playgroup how they want it to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 12:03 pm 
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niheloim wrote:
In EDH there is no official governance over a SB


I think the optional rule for sideboard listed under the official rules for the format would count as an official governance over a sideboard.

niheloim wrote:
If you were playing in an organized EDH event that allowed them, I'm pretty certain they would fall under the same rules for deck construction- meaning singleton in nature, colors match the deck/general.


I agree with you fully on this point, for an organized EDH event.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 12:42 pm 
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I really question how broken wishes are anyways. Are they really so much better than say, Demonic Tutor? They all carry limitations on what you can fetch or have nasty drawbacks (i.e. pay half your life). And since they only go to hand, you need to be able to cast the thing you're getting to make it worthwhile, and most of the stuff you can cast and is good enough that you want to get it is probably in your deck anyways. The most notable exception I can think of is tutoring for partially on-color hybrids, like getting Debtors' Knell with Glittering Wish in a G/W deck, but I'm really not convinced that's broken. Certainly good, but not broken. And it might let you get an obscure answer card to a specific problem. Possibly. If you own the right card, have it with you, and can play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 12:59 pm 
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I'm not sure I like the idea of every UBx deck out there being able to Cunning Wish for False Cure whenever someone decides to gain a ton of life. That's just one example, but one you would see happen. It would make Cunning Wish the best card in decks playing blue (yes, yawg, we know about Tolarian Academy 8) ).

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 1:00 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I really question how broken wishes are anyways. Are they really so much better than say, Demonic Tutor? They all carry limitations on what you can fetch or have nasty drawbacks (i.e. pay half your life). And since they only go to hand, you need to be able to cast the thing you're getting to make it worthwhile, and most of the stuff you can cast and is good enough that you want to get it is probably in your deck anyways. The most notable exception I can think of is tutoring for partially on-color hybrids, like getting Debtors' Knell with Glittering Wish in a G/W deck, but I'm really not convinced that's broken. Certainly good, but not broken. And it might let you get an obscure answer card to a specific problem. Possibly. If you own the right card, have it with you, and can play it.


You're looking at it too much like a solution based tutor, instead of the fact that the card gives your list basically infinite possibilities.

Everyone playing Red/Black + Blue for instance could instantly have Time Stretch available to them, without any downside. Who cares if they lose half their life, if at that moment, getting a Time Stretch wins them the game? This applies contextually to many examples. Your deck could run Academy Ruins just cause it's good, but you also run Golden Wish. You never intended to Slaver lock the game out and win, but you could, and it would win you the game, so what's the right play? You're telling me you're going to play fair and only fetch "non-broken" cards? Okay, what about everyone else? Then we enter in a debate on the context of "broken".

Running each and every card in your list is a choice, and that choice comes with pros and cons, because that card could be something else, better or worse. Wishes break that deck constraint in half. Demonic Tutors don't because you are still playing inside the limitations of the 100 individual choices you made.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 3:06 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Pysces wrote:
...
Wishes break that deck constraint in half. Demonic Tutors don't because you are still playing inside the limitations of the 100 individual choices you made.

There's a school of thought (I'm not one of them) that thinks that while tutors are great for redundancy, you could be better served by an additional threat in that slot.

I feel it's almost always better to tutor for something situational, rather then hoping for a lucky topdeck

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 3:13 pm 

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So wishes have been around for 8 ish years now ?

Why is this thread a whine thread about them ?

Are they powerful cards ? yes they are, but are they more powerful than demonic tutor ?

No they're not, they're a good tutor that's it, if you wanted to time stretch alot because that's the way you play, then it would be in your deck.

If you're not going to put slaver lock into your deck, where it's easily tutorable for why would you wish for it ?

The biggest draw back of the tutors is that they telegraph to that table whatever asstastic card you're tutored for.

in all seriousness the number of times a wish is used for the same threat you know synergises with your deck vs the time you have to go get your leechs or whatever are 100 times of getting a known good ( and likely redundant ) threat to 1 time of getting something jank because you think it's funny.

as to spawnsire - so .... yep he can win the game and is likely the reason that mindbreak trap was printed .. but in all seriousness if you've managed to get him into play and still have 20 mana to play with you're likely won the game with a pile of other cards as well.

I mean even rocket launcher is a good card with 30 mana to play around with...


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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-14 4:03 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
cheethorne wrote:
niheloim wrote:
In EDH there is no official governance over a SB


I think the optional rule for sideboard listed under the official rules for the format would count as an official governance over a sideboard.
Sure, they're mentioned, I suppose I should have said mandated instead of official, but I'd rather not have this be a discussion on semantics and vocabulary. So yes, they're optional, which is the issue. Not everyone plays them in casual EDH making Spawnsire's ability open to opinionated debate.

Sid the Chicken wrote:

Niheloim wrote:
The rules of deck construction prevent you from wishing for something that would make your deck illegal.

Actually they don't. The tournament floor rules prevent this from happening in a sanctioned event because you are not allowed to go hit your trade binder in the middle of a PTQ to wish something out of it. You are correct that an EDH sideboard should never contain copies of cards in the maindeck, nor cards that could not have been included in the main deck, but that does NOT prevent players in a casual non-sanctioned game from getting anything they own. (I would consider any organized EDH tourney/league "sanctioned" for purposes of this discussion, even though there is no official sanctioning body for EDH, these are organized play, as opposed to grabbing a bunch of friends who happen to be there and starting a game).

You quoted me out of context. The rules I was refering to were tournament rules, not the EDH rules for construction, which I suppose was not explicit. But I could argue that because of the deck construction rules of EDH, it would be illegal for me to Burning Wish for a Cruel Ultimatum while playing a Niv-Mizzet deck because I intended to play it using Mycosynth Lattice even in a casual game (which makes me really lament the oracle wording on False Dawn. I can imagine playing the dawn, death wishing for the cruel, and playing it making Sharuum a happy general).

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 Post subject: Re: Spawnsire of Ulamog. His ability is legal, but not wishes?
AgePosted: 2010-May-15 6:54 am 
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tempesteye wrote:
Pysces wrote:
...
Wishes break that deck constraint in half. Demonic Tutors don't because you are still playing inside the limitations of the 100 individual choices you made.

There's a school of thought (I'm not one of them) that thinks that while tutors are great for redundancy, you could be better served by an additional threat in that slot.

I feel it's almost always better to tutor for something situational, rather then hoping for a lucky topdeck


Well that's just crazy talk. They would be right, if 1) there was a lot less variance in magic and 2) you could fill your deck with threats that will always beat/race the opponents threats every time and be drawn at the time you need them. There is no catch-all threat that covers that, otherwise no one would run answers which are the catch-all's of Magic. Since this is the case, a threat that can't beat/race your opponents current threat is a lot less useful then a DT which can always get something that can and is only fractionally worse then top decking a catch-all. I'd argue that a DT allows you to run more threats, and keeps earlier weaker threats more relevant, because you get to run marginally less catch-all's overall, while still covering the many narrower corner case situations of MTG all at the low cost of some tempo. Catch-all's can be as good as threats as well, as they can make your current outdated threat a refresh. Anyway, I digress, you of course are aware of this, I'm merely having blurb.

odit wrote:
So wishes have been around for 8 ish years now ?

Why is this thread a whine thread about them ?


Because a year ago I was told Wishes were basically useless by Mr Sheldon himself, and now, outside of a governance rule on the Exile Zone making cards considered "in game" and therefore not fetchable like RFG'ed cards before, nothing else has changed. So why is the expectation suddenly that wishes are perfectly use able, and yet I don't see anybody using these powerful cards?

Quote:
Are they powerful cards ? yes they are, but are they more powerful than demonic tutor ?

No they're not, they're a good tutor that's it, if you wanted to time stretch alot because that's the way you play, then it would be in your deck.

If you're not going to put slaver lock into your deck, where it's easily tutorable for why would you wish for it ?

in all seriousness the number of times a wish is used for the same threat you know synergises with your deck vs the time you have to go get your leechs or whatever are 100 times of getting a known good ( and likely redundant ) threat to 1 time of getting something jank because you think it's funny.


I have to humbly disagree. Everyday I make hard cuts to my lists on a selection of cards I'd love to run, but are considered too narrow or just slightly not good enough. A DT will never solve this problem, a Wish does. I think your purposely being shortsighted if you can't see the difference between 100 possibilities and infinite* possibilities. If 100 possibilities are always sufficient for you, then my hats off to you. Personally, I can think of many game/board states for many situationally awesome cards that I'd love to have access to but don't. I don't get bent out of shape over it, because that's part of the fun. Wishes change that.

*I am in no way making the assertion that infinite possibilities is true and correct, I'm merely offering a indefinite number as a substitute for my laziness to properly apply a figure. Personally, if I did run Wishes, infinite possibilities would actually be somewhere from 10 to 20 cards

Likewise, it also has to do with my decision making process. Since a DT is limited to the cards I put in the deck, the correct card to fetch is always confined to the list of cards I choose to run. The deck can never be more broken then what I allow to be in it. Once again, Wishes change this. While you could self impose a limit on what constitutes your collection, it's about as imaginary as my pet Larry the Chimpanzee. My list might not run Time Stretch, but if I drew a Burning Wish and a Time Stretch is what will win me the game, making any other decision is basically wrong if I'm attempting to play the list to its full capabilities. I use Time Stretch as an example because its a card with a stigma and people often don't run it for said reason, even if it's a damn good card winning wise to run. It's like the same people who say they run broken cards, but argue that "they only use if it they have to" or "I purposely don't break the card, if I can". I apply to the theory that playing sub optimally is just bad form and making your deck fun should be in the deck building process, not in the playing stage. This is maybe where we differ. Maybe a better example would be a card like Flashfires, or Boil, cards that you would never dare to run main and risk being dead/pounded on for, but in the context of a Wish, could be a very appropriate card to fetch.

Quote:
The biggest draw back of the tutors is that they telegraph to that table whatever asstastic card you're tutored for.


So do the Mirage tutors, and yet no one has any issue with those.

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