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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 2:19 am 

Joined: 2009-Sep-05 5:39 pm
Age: Drake
Jesus tap-dancing Christ people. He costs 15 mana. Fifteen. A one followed by a five with no space in between. 1111 or 0xf for the nerds out there. I'm starting to feel old now, but does anyone remember when Chris Pikula (I think it was him, correct me if I am wrong) said that if something cost more than 4 to play, it better win the game? Anyone? Even accounting for the Texan proportions of EDH, 15 has to be above the Pikula line.

Fairly cast, Emrakul should eat one player (which, again, for 15 it is his God given right to do), and then the rest of the table plays one of the infinite good answers to him, and then the table, fearful of the next giant monster, beat up the guy who cast him (in game, of course), and move on with the game. When cheated into play, without the timewalk effect, the table should just move on to the answer phase and be done with it. So, why not ban the one card that lets him actually get cast way too early (along with the other titans, and a host of other broken cards) in Channel, and move on with our lives.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 8:22 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
You shouldn't make light of Emrakul, but he most certainly shouldn't be banned either.

Emrakul is fairly easy to hardcast on turns 6-8, sometimes earlier depending on your draw.
He's going to kill someone or at least take them out of the game, but you aren't just SITTING there on your extra turn, are you?
All I know is that in my playgroup, if you do something as big as hardcast Emrakul on a turn, your next turn is going to be even more powerful.

EDIT: He is really only super-dangerous when hardcast. My friend played Show and Tell turn 3 yesterday. The rest of the table dropped lame stuff, he dropped Emrakul, and I dropped Duplicant. HA!

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 9:32 am 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
Age: Drake
yawg07 wrote:
EDIT: He is really only super-dangerous when hardcast. My friend played Show and Tell turn 3 yesterday. The rest of the table dropped lame stuff, he dropped Emrakul, and I dropped Duplicant. HA!


Having seen it played from a Mind's Desire... there are ways to cheaty him into play that makes it still dangerous. :shock:
Still waiting for someone to Jhoira this out.


Last edited by SweetRein on 2010-May-23 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 9:34 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Oh I know :D I run Mind's Desire in my Sharuum list. Also Temporal Aperture, Djinn of Wishes, and Brilliant Ultimatum :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 9:36 am 
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yawg07 wrote:
Oh I know :D I run Mind's Desire in my Sharuum list. Also Temporal Aperture, Djinn of Wishes, and Brilliant Ultimatum :twisted:


Oh! I forgot all about Brilliant! Thank you.

I need more tentacruels now :|


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 12:59 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
LennonMarx wrote:
Chris Pikula (I think it was him, correct me if I am wrong) said that if something cost more than 4 to play, it better win the game? Anyone? Even accounting for the Texan proportions of EDH, 15 has to be above the Pikula line.

That quote has been attributed to so many people I wonder now if it was even originally uttered by a pro or not. I've heard it as a quote from Zvi, Finkel, now Pikula, and there might be one more I'm forgetting. Anyway, casting Emrakul often will win you the game, so how is that quote even relevant?

As long as yawg07 is sharing quick Tentacruel anecdotes, I may as well jump in. The other day I was in a 3-player with my Maralen of the Mornsong deck against Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I had Gauntlet of Power and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out, giving Teferi enough mana to hardcast a ridiculously early Emrakul. He took his extra turn, started to declare attacks, then Slobad pointed to is Ensnaring Bridge. We had a good laugh.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-23 1:40 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 1:48 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Heerhugowaard, Netherlands
T1: Island, sol ring
T2 mountain, Jjoira
T3: island, paradox haze, suspend emrakul
T4: do something useful
T5: Emmy goes boom on someones face

Still want this in my Jhoira deck, its already muchos fun in Sharuum :>


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-24 6:32 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
intreped wrote:
Anyway, casting Emrakul often will win you the game, so how is that quote even relevant?

I think he's responding to the complaints that Emrakul just wins by saying 'it damn well better win if I'm investing 15 fricking mana in it'.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-29 7:02 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-30 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
intreped wrote:
LennonMarx wrote:
Chris Pikula (I think it was him, correct me if I am wrong) said that if something cost more than 4 to play, it better win the game? Anyone? Even accounting for the Texan proportions of EDH, 15 has to be above the Pikula line.

That quote has been attributed to so many people I wonder now if it was even originally uttered by a pro or not. I've heard it as a quote from Zvi, Finkel, now Pikula, and there might be one more I'm forgetting. Anyway, casting Emrakul often will win you the game, so how is that quote even relevant?


I always heard it at 6 mana and that it was Oliver Ruel.

But I can't be certain either.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-30 9:27 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
I've always heard 5 and that it was Zvi Mowshowitz

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-31 7:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I heard it was a 4 mana card in your lap, and that it was Mike Long.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-31 9:14 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
tempesteye wrote:
I heard it was a 4 mana card in your lap, and that it was Mike Long.

HAHAHAHA! xD That gave me a damn good chuckle. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-31 2:18 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Myojin of Night's Reach is so very much worse than this card, and costs about half as much. He may not eat a player, but it's hard to answer cards that take away everyone's spells.

A prohibitively high mana cost and a "must be cast" clause on his Time Warp make this balanced. When you're talking about 15 mana, you have to consider what else you could do with that mana. Just tapping a Planar Portal for Beacon of Tomorrows and casting it is 14 mana, and that wins the game unless answered immediately, unlike Emrakul.

In response to all this "if a card costs 5, it should win you the game" nonsense, those comments are based around a 20 life one vs one format. I'm pretty sure the time period where comments like that were made was the Urza Block. The cards he was referring to were things like Morphling, Memory Jar, Sneak Attack, Wildfire, and Time Spiral. Even Masticore and Replenish, at 4 mana, won a fair number of games by themselves at that time. But like I said, that was not a multi-player format.

In this format, the mana cost number where a card should either warp or win the game if you can reach your next untap step after resolving one is usually 8+. Here's some good examples: Myojin of Night's Reach/Seeing Winds, Sundering Titan, Time Stretch, Obliterate and like effects, Mindslaver, Darksteel Forge, and Planar Portal, and Possessed Portal.

To be honest, the only culprit for banning due to Eldrazi spells is Jhoira, and only because it counts as being cast.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-31 2:56 pm 

Joined: 2009-Sep-05 5:39 pm
Age: Drake
trevor wrote:
In response to all this "if a card costs 5, it should win you the game" nonsense, those comments are based around a 20 life one vs one format. I'm pretty sure the time period where comments like that were made was the Urza Block. The cards he was referring to were things like Morphling, Memory Jar, Sneak Attack, Wildfire, and Time Spiral. Even Masticore and Replenish, at 4 mana, won a fair number of games by themselves at that time. But like I said, that was not a multi-player format.

In this format, the mana cost number where a card should either warp or win the game if you can reach your next untap step after resolving one is usually 8+. Here's some good examples: Myojin of Night's Reach/Seeing Winds, Sundering Titan, Time Stretch, Obliterate and like effects, Mindslaver, Darksteel Forge, and Planar Portal, and Possessed Portal.

To be honest, the only culprit for banning due to Eldrazi spells is Jhoira, and only because it counts as being cast.


I didn't intend for that quote to bring up so much discussion, but I was merely pointing out that at some point (and I even said at the time the number was higher than 4 in EDH) spending some amount of mana and winning the game should be okay. And the quote was from the Invasion block days, I believe... I am surer about that than who said it, anyways.

Also, don't forget Channel. How that card has stayed legal for this long, I have no idea. Maybe in Sheldon's "I'd hug a wolverine before playing broken cards" mind, Channel isn't even worth a deck slot, but "GG: Add up to 39 to your mana pool" seems a tab bit above the curve.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-31 3:02 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter who said it or even when it was said. But I definitely think there's a mana cost in this format where spells pretty much warp or win games, and I think it's 8.

Channeling into a turn 2 Emrakul does seems like just about the most broken thing you could do with either card in EDH. Early Time Warp + annihilator is simply going to win games, or at least ruin them.


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