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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-11 3:34 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-30 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
Bunbury wrote:
paperwarrior wrote:
That said, if he's consistently unfun, he should probably be banned.


And on that note, an interesting story of him. I played a game where on about turn 8 or so, I attacked a player with Sphinx Ambassador. I took Emrakul and he guessed incorrectly. As such, I got my big Eldrazi, then cast Decree of Silence. The other two players looked at each other, one asked "Well, I can deal with the Silence, you got an answer to Emrakul?" and when they didn't, they both scooped.

Sure I won, but that wasn't even fun for me.

Why would he not name Emrakul? I think you deserved to win that game.


That actually came down to mind games. He had both Emrakul and Kozilek in his deck. As I rummaged through his deck to decide (It was new, so I didn't know what he had), I jokingly said, "if I take Emrakul, you'll just name that, so I'll take this," putting Emrakul face down in front of me. He named Kozilek.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-12 11:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Like I said, you deserved to win. Not having an answer for Emrakul means you name emrakul and let your opponent have the Kozilek who is far easier to deal with.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 2:35 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-08 10:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
I thought I'd throw in my two cents here rather then the 'Ban card X' thread since the eldrazi talk seems more relevant here then the other thread, which is more generic

from what I've experienced (well over a dozen games, and well over a dozen involving eldrazi, not limited to Emrakul), it's not so much the damage you take then it is the annihilator

I've even seen games go downhill to an early It That Betrays, and that thing only has annihilator 2

the issue is always (whether early or late game), that the edh format (or maybe it's just the group I play with) is inherently filled with board sweepers, which means that an eldrazi is more often then not likely to eat your manabase

which harkens back to the question of "how fun is it to play a game where you can't actually do anything?"

I don't think the way to look at the cards is "is there a solution", since at very worst, ANY deck could run an ad-hoc solution of icy manipulator

the question is more often then not (more-so because of emrakul's pseudo haste), "do you have a solution RIGHT NOW?"

because if you don't, you've probably got 1 or 2 turns tops to find it before you've been annihilated so far, you won't have the mana to do anything

of course I have seen token decks beat out eldrazi's, but that's really only one deck archtype out of all the ones that people play with


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-16 5:29 pm 
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Location: New Brunswick
CrystalChaos wrote:
I've even seen games go downhill to an early It That Betrays, and that thing only has annihilator 2

An early Hand of Emrakul would be a better example since he has the lowest annihilator out of all eldrazi. It that Betrays essential has "give attacking player control of two permanents".

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-17 7:30 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-09 11:56 am
Age: Drake
Hand of Emrakul is pretty crap compared to Ulamog's Crusher. The alternate cost is irrelevant and the fact that one has a larger body and more significantly annhilator 2 over 1 makes sure the opponent has much less time to find an answer. Then again that really isn't the point of this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-19 7:52 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
I think the biggest reason to ban it is the fact that no matter who plays it, the rest of the table stops having fun most of the time.

When I bribery out of someones deck, the person I took it from has no fun. When I tooth and nail it into play with some way to give it haste (Madrush, fires, Anger), nobody can legitimately be able to handle it.

I saw a Zur deck that had Em as it's only creature and used token creatures and Proteus Staff to get Em into play. Ruined a perfectly good game of EDH.

The only time I think it's the most fair is when it is played legitimately. Even then, there are easy way to abuse it (Crystal Shard and the like).

I don't know if it should be banned because there are good staple blue cards that can really hurt the player using it (Bribery, Gather Specemins, Mindbreak Trap, Time Stop). That doesn't help the people playing all of the other colors.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-19 9:58 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Ximenus wrote:
I think the biggest reason to ban it is the fact that no matter who plays it, the rest of the table stops having fun most of the time.

You can make this argument for a lot of big spells though.
Time Stretch
Tooth & Nail
Insurrection
To say nothing of
Zur
Erayo
Arcum Daggson

That doesn't mean we should ban them all.
Ximenus wrote:
When I tooth and nail it into play with some way to give it haste (Madrush, fires, Anger), nobody can legitimately be able to handle it.

The solution there is to have answers for your haste source, not emmy, and then wrath it away ASAP.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-19 11:56 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Ximenus wrote:
I think the biggest reason to ban it is the fact that no matter who plays it, the rest of the table stops having fun most of the time.

You can make this argument for a lot of big spells though.
Time Stretch
Tooth & Nail
Insurrection
To say nothing of
Zur
Erayo
Arcum Daggson


I somewhat agree with this, but there are ok ways to use a couple of those cards.

Time stretch - Gives 2 additional turns, but if someone isn't recurring that isn't the end of the world. I've played it and not won because I didn't have enough gas to kill people.

Tooth and Nail - Most of the time I do not win with this card. I'm not playing with Kiki Jiki / Pestermite or anything like that. I'll admit it does put me in a pretty dominant position though. once again it's when you abuse the card that a problem starts.

Insurrection - Most of the time this doesn't stop people from having fun, It just ends the game.

Zur
Erayo
Arcum Daggson

I agree with Zur, I haven't had experience playing against the other two, but looking at what they do I would guess you are probably correct.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
That doesn't mean we should ban them all.


I agree. I also said I didn't know if Em should be banned. I just know that every time I've seen it hit the table it has left bad blood at the table. That would be my only good reason for thinking it should be banned. I don't know if people have had enough time to really adjust to it though. I don't really see people playing him with the thought of really playing him fairly though.If someone has enough mana to infinately take turns with Em and some bounce mechanic, that's a 2 card combo, but one costs way too much to think it broken. If you add something like fist of suns, Then it becomes pretty crazy (but still 3 cards - and now 5 color deck).

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Ximenus wrote:
When I tooth and nail it into play with some way to give it haste (Madrush, fires, Anger), nobody can legitimately be able to handle it.

The solution there is to have answers for your haste source, not emmy, and then wrath it away ASAP.


I agree completely.

I guess it's kind of like Staff of Domination... It's hard to think someone is going to play the card without trying to break it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-19 12:48 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Ximenus wrote:
I guess it's kind of like Staff of Domination... It's hard to think someone is going to play the card without trying to break it.

Kinda, but SoD is only awesome if you have huge amounts of (usually infinite) mana, otherwise it's not that exciting. So the only way to use it is pretty much breaking it, otherwise it's just an expensive combination of Jayemdae Tome, Icy Manipulator and Fountain of Youth.

By contrast, Emrakul is awesome even if you just cast it and swing. It doesn't NEED combo to be worth running. I'd be much more concerned about people powering it out really early with Rofellos or Mayael and just not having any answers available than I would about people breaking it with Crystal Shard or something.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-20 3:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
Age: Drake
In fact, when someone manages to Erratic Portal their General Emrakul... it's just amazing. Painful and amazing.

With Rofellos, it just turns into a beacon of tomorrows that also shuffles your graveyard in and then draws you 15 cards. That is still not a problem with Emrakul, however. Just the deck. With any other deck, if I saw someone gg-sac it, I could only approve.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-20 9:21 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
SweetRein wrote:
In fact, when someone manages to Erratic Portal their General Emrakul... it's just amazing. Painful and amazing.

More amazing is seeing an opponent respond with a Fracturing Gust to nuke all the artifacts that allowed them to power it out early along with the Portal/Shard so they're stuck with him in their hand and no way to get him out again, at least for a while.

I picked one up for Omnath so I kind of don't want Emrakul to be banned anymore...

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-20 10:24 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Jukren54 wrote:
I picked one up for Omnath so I kind of don't want Emrakul to be banned anymore...

Funny, I felt the same way about Staff of Domination after I obtained mine.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-22 2:28 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I did some further digging into answers for Emrakul and I came up with Attrition and Predator, Flagship. Both are useful and provide other multi-shot answers for other problems as well. I think we just need to adjust our playstyle and deckbuilding skills to accommadate the Eldrazi into EDH.

It still is terrible to face down Emrakul but if you include more versatile answers then it's not as bad. Sure, he (she?) will still blow you out some of the time but I've killed Emrakul without a Wrath a few times now.

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1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-22 5:54 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I have to say that bribery is seeing ALOT more play now with people playing the eldrazi. We saw a turn 2 Emrakul the other day. We where about to scoop if the player next in line to take his turn didnt show us the shriekmaw in his hand :facepalm:

The eldrazi sure suck if left unanswered, Emrakul topping them off. If you see this guy coming at you even once there is a good chance you wont be winning that game anymore. However, unless you (hard)cast him/her/it, (s)he loses half his/her power and becomes a huge fatty with protection from spells. But hey, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the EDH kitchen. T2 is the format for things no larger than 5/5, EDH is for the crap-your-pants "holy shit did he just do that!?" games :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-22 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2009-May-25 4:07 pm
Age: Drake
I would like to add that yesterday, I had to leave my Emrakul untapped as a blocker.

To block a power matrix backed marit-lage.


Once again, another one of those events that shows that Emrakul... just feels right.


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