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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-08 8:08 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-11 9:58 am
Age: Drake
Every time I see a thread where someone calls for the banning of a particular card, their argument comes down to "If you play this card and use it unhindered for its chosen function, you'll win!"

Isn't that how a game goes? Doesn't someone have to win at some point? If a game goes eight turns, then someone plays Emrakul, then the game goes four more turns and that guy wins, you had a 12-turn EDH game that probably lasted an hour or more. Awesome.

Honestly, I've seen way more compelling arguments in this thread to ban Bribery than Emrakul. Now THERE'S a card that is "significantly more powerful than it's mana cost would indicate based on the nature of the format."

If someone plays Emrakul and you just scoop, YOU'RE the bad guy here, not the guy that played Emrakul. He put a big monster in his deck - you took your ball and went home. Play the game for fun.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-08 5:11 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-30 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
I'm in an odd spot on this card. I played 6 games of EDH today with some friends. In 4 of them, Emrakul was cast. In 3 of those 4, the caster won the game. I would fully support it being banned, and we've mused a house rule banning if after the next few months, he's still equally dominant. However, I don't think he will be banned. He doesn't really fit the conditions for most bannings. He's certainly not a degenerate un-fun combo piece like Painter's Servant and it doesn't behave unusually in EDH like Biorhythm or Sway of the Stars. It's simply a big dork. A very powerful big dork that can put the caster darn far ahead. But at the end of the day, it's just a big dude.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-08 11:59 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
Emrakul is clearly a case of power creep. It simply does too much for one card. 4 boring 2/2s for 8 total mana is pretty worthless as it eats up 4 cards especially in this format, but an 8/8 for one card and 8 mana is much better given one still has 3 more cards as options. Add in abilities and things go more towards the big card. That said, from a game design perspective the "1/1 for 1" ratio really breaks down at the higher end. I guess it works in standard because it seems like everything is geared to ending the game on turn 7 by the latest (as in, the game-deciding cards are played or dealt with by then, but it may take a few more turns), so putting Emrakul in the deck becomes a large gamble. That just makes EDH a clumsy style for a game not intended to be played out to 10+ turns and cards like this make it obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-09 1:31 am 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Meh, play more Armageddon.

Emrakul's a pretty cool huge dude, and EDH is all about cool huge things. That said, if he's consistently unfun, he should probably be banned. Thank you for bringing it up. The Rules Committe, I hope, has noted your responses and filed them away. I'm sure nothing will be done prematurely.

Also, isn't there a thread for bringing up problem cards? "Ban Card X...it wins too many games in my area!" It's stickied. People should check it out sometime instead of making a new thread for every semi-worrisome card.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-09 9:24 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
paperwarrior wrote:
That said, if he's consistently unfun, he should probably be banned.


But unfun in what way? If everytime my opponent accumulates 15 mana and plays the Eldrazi he wins, does that count as unfun or does that count as "he played his "I win card" or "I win combo" (to get that much mana, maybe he played other cards). Really, the point should not be whether you can win if you opponent hard casts Emrakul, the consideration should be how fast and how consistent is it to play the card.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-10 9:20 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-30 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
paperwarrior wrote:
That said, if he's consistently unfun, he should probably be banned.


And on that note, an interesting story of him. I played a game where on about turn 8 or so, I attacked a player with Sphinx Ambassador. I took Emrakul and he guessed incorrectly. As such, I got my big Eldrazi, then cast Decree of Silence. The other two players looked at each other, one asked "Well, I can deal with the Silence, you got an answer to Emrakul?" and when they didn't, they both scooped.

Sure I won, but that wasn't even fun for me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-10 10:48 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not sure this needs to be banned.

From what I'm seeing the issue isn't Emrakul itself, but rather early Emrakul. As stated previously, a turn 15 Emrakul can likely be answered, even if he brings a player down to 9+ permanents (more than that should be in play on your side, even counting lands...) on the next turn.

Of course, a turn 4 or 5 Emrakul is that much harder to deal with and often will (should?) spell the end of the game. There are many "un-fun" card interactions out there in EDH-land, most of them can be resolved through peer pressure or discussion in the local group. The Eldrazi are format-warping, but already oddball solutions are coming out of the woodwork. Give it a little while and if the format does descend into "Race to Emrakul" then Sheldon and the others can take a hard look at things.

It's also worth mentioning that some cards elicit exclamation points but their impact isn't seen or felt until later. Our local meta was Chicken Littleing over Realms Uncharted and its potential to end the world but graveyard impediments and smart play has managed to overcome that worry so far...

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-10 11:35 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
I'll reply in this thread, but it's the case in all the "The Case to Ban XXX" threads.

Bans are rarely, if ever, pre-emptive. We've learned our lessons over the years that while some things look broken, they actually don't end up that way. We'd much rather see demonstration of cards that are degenerate before considering a ban.

Don't look for Emrakul to be banned any time soon. It costs 15 mana and is moderately hard to cheat into play from the graveyard.

Sheldon

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-10 3:35 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Seeing as the OP hasnt replied in a while I think its safe to say (s)he sees its not really a problem :wink:

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Last edited by 24x30cl on 2010-May-10 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-10 3:38 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Is there a statute of limitations regarding ban requests and card complaints?

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-11 9:45 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Cervid wrote:
Is there a statute of limitations regarding ban requests and card complaints?

I hope not. I was just about to dredge up the Thelon/Bosh/Memnarch thread and start a flame war to drastically increase my post count.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-11 9:46 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
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Location: Michigan
intreped wrote:
Cervid wrote:
Is there a statute of limitations regarding ban requests and card complaints?

I hope not. I was just about to dredge up the Thelon/Bosh/Memnarch thread and start a flame war to drastically increase my post count.


I know, right? Why is it the rules haven't been changed to allow them as generals? :wink:

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Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-11 11:08 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
Cervid wrote:
I know, right? Why is it the rules haven't been changed to allow them as generals? :wink:


Because the RC doesn't want to let loose another broken blue general. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-11 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Bunbury wrote:
paperwarrior wrote:
That said, if he's consistently unfun, he should probably be banned.


And on that note, an interesting story of him. I played a game where on about turn 8 or so, I attacked a player with Sphinx Ambassador. I took Emrakul and he guessed incorrectly. As such, I got my big Eldrazi, then cast Decree of Silence. The other two players looked at each other, one asked "Well, I can deal with the Silence, you got an answer to Emrakul?" and when they didn't, they both scooped.

Sure I won, but that wasn't even fun for me.

Why would he not name Emrakul? I think you deserved to win that game.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case to BAN Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
AgePosted: 2010-May-11 3:08 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-05 5:03 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Algalord
Did somebody say flame war??!!

>.>
<.<

... oh well. I like how Sheldon referred to this as a "The Case to Ban XXX" thread!!

Makes me think dirty!!

End of Line

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