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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-15 8:52 am 
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It's clear from what Genomancer has said, that the RC isn't worried about metalworker being good so much as they're worried about him being accidentally good really early in the game, causing that game to accidentally suck. The trouble I have with this is that metalworker can't be accidentally good, and can't make a game accidentally suck. You either get him really early and he's really, really good (on purpose, because you have to be playing a huge amount of artifacts) or you get him late and he's just "ok".

I think this falls perfectly into the large set of cards that can be played in this format that in the wrong hands can be very unfun for a casual table, but in the right hands is totally acceptable. By that same logic, I think Protean Hulk could be safely unbanned. Most groups frown on infinite combo decks anyways, and you can't accidentally combo off with hulk. In non-combo decks, hulk can be played as a fun fattie that dies with benefit. The key here is social control, which is something that happens in every play group.

kayvee wrote:
No, what I'm suggesting is that were Metalworker unbanned, the ratio of artifacts to coloured spells in any deck would almost certainly shift dramatically in order to make Metalworker "worth it". Hence, "format warping"


It wasn't format warping before it was banned, yet somehow it's going to become that way were it subsequently unbanned?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-15 8:54 am 
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kayvee wrote:
I fail to see how Channel is more of a "combo piece" than Metalworker.


Really? :facepalm:

- Channel gives you mana on turn 2, while Metalworker has to wait until turn 4.
- Channel can only be answered by countermagic, Metalworker is both an artifact AND a creature, which makes it so easy to kill given that it has summoning sickness.
- Channel gives you FAR more mana than Metalworker could ever hope of producing.
- Channel's resource for mana production (life) is ridiculously much more stable than Metalworker's (dependent on artifact cards in your hand)
- Channel gives you the mana immediately.

Just ask someone like yawg07 or Khymera; they both know how silly ridiculous Channel has always been as a combo piece / facilitator.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-15 9:03 am 
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Quote:
- Channel gives you mana on turn 2, while Metalworker has to wait until turn 4.


In mono green or multi, which are notoriously coloured symbol-intensive.

Quote:
- Channel can only be answered by countermagic, Metalworker is both an artifact AND a creature, which makes it so easy to kill given that it has summoning sickness.


I struggle to think what a metric ton of colourless mana is going to do to win a multiplayer EDH game that doesn't necessarily die to removal, bar burn, which isn't really considered douchey by anyone, and Emrakul, which I can see sense in banning immediately.

Quote:
- Channel gives you FAR more mana than Metalworker could ever hope of producing.
- Channel's resource for mana production (life) is ridiculously much more stable than Metalworker's (dependent on artifact cards in your hand)


Metalworker doesn't kill you in the late-game, and Channel doesn't combo with anything that untaps creatures/artifacts.

Quote:
- Channel gives you the mana immediately.


What about that is specifically degenerate? So does tapping lands.

I appear to have gotten into some kind of quote war, here, so I figure I should probably let my points speak for themselves. In any case, this thread isn't about Channel, nor should any individual card other than Metalworker influence whether Metalworker should or should not be banned. The sole reason I pointed out Surging Chaos's comments in the Channel thread was because to me it seemed inconsistent with his perspective on Metalworker, which might have been food for thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-15 9:14 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-26 12:19 am
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I agree completely with Surging Chaos.
It's time guys..it's time.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-15 10:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
What about that is specifically degenerate? So does tapping lands.


What a crazy argument. Channel produces up to 39 mana on turn 2. A forest produces 1. T-Cad produces between 0 and lots (but I suspect not 39). Metalworker produces 0 - 8 depending on the hand.

Channel + Squallmonger + Armedillo Cloak + More than 1 opponent = You kill at least one opponent without a hit to your life total. I still actually want to build the deck that uses those cards (except Channel... I feel that's very cheatyface.)

And stating that you just want to talk about Metalworker in a vacume without using other cards to determine if it should be banned or not is also a pretty rediculous statement.

While I do not agree with the RC about metalworker, I understand why they feel the way they do.

I think it's pretty silly that Rof isn't banned as well. I saw someone combo out with Rof using Sword of the Paruns, Omnanth, and Greater Good to draw their entire library (save a few cards just in case). They dropped Masticore and Fist of Krosa, nuked all of the other lands, cast rude awakening, used the Krosa guy to overrun 50000 times and killed the table.

That was turn 5.

I do think that the RC really doesn't see green as the powerhouse color it is. Sure it doesn't have the best removal, and no counter magic.

Metalworker is weaker and not as efficient as Rof. You need to have lots of artifacts to make it good. You need ways to refill your hand to make it continually good. Also any kill that a metalworker player would use, Rof can use (Rocket Launcher, Goblin Cannon, etc). The only time the last statement isn't true is when you have Metalworker paired with another color that can use lots of colorless to kill someone (Commet Storm,Braingeyser, etc.)

All in all I think Rof should be banned or Metalwrker should be unbanned. Either way I think the major contributer to the madness, Staff of Domination, should be banned... While it has lots of good uses beyond the combo, it is 80-90% used to combo out.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-15 10:55 am 

Joined: 2008-May-27 6:19 pm
Age: Wyvern
Alright so I'm here to post information about metalworker and the huge uproar the so called “banning” it produces. But first I want to give a little background on why the “banning” is a big deal for edh players.

Officially Metalworker is not banned, only dexterity cards are truly banned in edh. But previously the old format of the webpage listed cards such as fastbond and mox’s as BANNED. Currently theres a list of cards that Sheldon and other rules committee suggest you should not play with. Suggest is the key word in the sentence. But because of the previously old format of the webpage as listing the cards as being banned makes the suggested list of cards essentially a banned list. Now this list currently has the stigma of a banned list, and many players around the world stick so closely to the list just like legacy players stick to the banned list in legacy. I have no reason why this is the case but this thread is not about that. Just like in other formats players want the so called banned list to make sense. That’s why so many people make threads upon threads on why Land tax should not be banned in legacy. Players simply want to have a fair list that other players can agree are powerful cards.

Now I and my playgroup play cut-throat if you will. The only cards that are necessarily banned are the moxen (Makes multicolor decks have a Huge advantage compared to MonoColor), coalition victory (Essentially means a win if you don't run blue), and kokusho (Been discussed to death). Now we can play this way in multiplayer because there is enough graveyard hate, artifact hate, land destruction, there’s even flat out counter spells that simply answer the problem before it happens.

Now edh in multiplayer is a long game, that’s why spells such as time stretch and so on see play. Cards that are great in early game aren’t necessarily the best in edh. Now metal worker itself when played early often produces 4-6 mana in a artifact heavy deck. When talking artifact heavy the deck is usually 30+ artifacts. Now the best abuse of worker is to tap him using all of the mana to cast a NON-artifact spell such as your general. This makes it so your next metalworker tap just as effective. Sure it’s a huge jump in mana but so are gauntlet of power, extraplanar lens and hell even thran dynamo and gilded lotus. I will discuss gauntlet of might in a second, but I still want to point out a number of key things about metal worker.

So even if you can abuse metal worker to its fullest you get the same mana that you would out any other mana accelerant. Now metalworker if you can’t abuse the amount of colorless in mana in a non-colorless spell means that your next metal worker tap produces less mana. This is huge because normally later you still want the large amounts of mana later. Take an early game metal worker, he’s at his prime, making mana as good as any other accelerant, but in the late game metal worker turns into an old man. He’s not too good at what he does anymore. He might produce 2 mana, that’s if he lives long enough to see his next turn.

So now everyone can agree an early metalworker can produce tons of mana right? So that means he needs to be destroyed before he untaps. In duels metalworker and Rofellos often eat the dust the first time they are played. Now Rofellos automatically has recursion due to the fact he’s a general. Metalworker on the other hand cannot be recurred early game when he is a problem! Now in 1v1 if he’s removed then in multiplayer if he really is such a threat he will be killed instantly, and with multiple players, one player should have a removal spell.

Now many people compare metal worker to even more powerful mana producers such as tolerian academy and Rofellos. Now I’m going to compare metal worker to a card, I don’t think anyone would even think of banning. Gauntlet of Might. Gauntlet of might requires a large commitment to basics, 20+ basics usually. Even though the effect is universal really the only player who casted gauntlet of might is abusing it. Now Gauntlet of Might is producing the same amount of mana, it’s not a creature so its harder to kill, and it requires little commitment. When I say commitment I mean it does not require deck slots devoted to one card. Gauntlet of might also gets insanely better in the late Game. Not only do you not have to wait a turn to get a benefit from the extra mana, it produces more mana then metalworker ever could. So why isn’t gauntlet of might banned?
(I don't think gauntlet should be banned and neither should metalworker)

I hope my thoughts make sense as I’m writing this on very little sleep and my grammar is probably terrible, but hopefully the message still gets through. One last comment I would make is that if the rules committee could tell us they are at least listening to us, and can share their thoughts on the issue. Of couarse after they post many other players are bound to make counter-arguments, but if they are done respectfully and follow forums rules then what harm could it do?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-16 5:27 am 
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Hunter245 wrote:
Officially Metalworker is not banned, only dexterity cards are truly banned in edh. But previously the old format of the webpage listed cards such as fastbond and mox’s as BANNED. Currently theres a list of cards that Sheldon and other rules committee suggest you should not play with. Suggest is the key word in the sentence. But because of the previously old format of the webpage as listing the cards as being banned makes the suggested list of cards essentially a banned list. Now this list currently has the stigma of a banned list, and many players around the world stick so closely to the list just like legacy players stick to the banned list in legacy. I have no reason why this is the case but this thread is not about that.

We have all heard the "it's just a suggested list, play with it in your group if you want to" argument before. While it's perfectly true and legitimate, it's also kinda a cop-out because many groups (I'd go so far as to say the majority of groups) use the suggested list as their official list. This is because many people play with more than one group and by using the suggested ban list, there is consistency. You don't need to worry about changing your deck based on who you're playing with.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-16 6:24 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Cervid wrote:
The key here is social control, which is something that happens in every play group.


I don't like the idea of social pressure to discourage playing certain cards (or in certain situations). This might make sense for a small format with limited appeal, but as EDH gets bigger and more popular, you'll see more and more people playing with people they have never met before (pick up games with strangers, as it were). A well maintained banned list gives everyone a reasonable base level for what to expect when they play with strangers.

They same could be said for playing a pick up game of basketball (or any other sport). People have reasonable expectations of how others are going to act & play (no one is expecting a batter to start hitting the catcher with his bat to get an "edge" or running to third base first). The banned list provides the same sort of behavior (along with the comprehensive rules for MtG).

However, I do agree that Metalworker should be banned only as part of an effect to reduce explosive mana starts. If such an effort is not desired by the Rules Committee, then I feel that Metalworker falls within the same category as other fast, repeatable mana sources in the game, such as Tolarian Academy and Sol Ring. If other, equally strong, repeatable mana sources aren't banned, it shouldn't be either.

As for its effect on the meta-game, that is a different aspect to consider. I the Rules Committee is making a concerted effort to reduce the power of certain artifact fueled, blue-based decks, then they have a lot further to go then just getting rid of Metalworker.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-16 9:26 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
cheethorne wrote:
(no one is expecting a batter to start hitting the catcher with his bat to get an "edge" or running to third base first).

If they did I would be a lot more interested in baseball.
cheethorne wrote:
I don't like the idea of social pressure to discourage playing certain cards (or in certain situations). This might make sense for a small format with limited appeal, but as EDH gets bigger and more popular, you'll see more and more people playing with people they have never met before (pick up games with strangers, as it were). A well maintained banned list gives everyone a reasonable base level for what to expect when they play with strangers.

Well said.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-16 9:35 am 
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cheethorne wrote:
I don't like the idea of social pressure to discourage playing certain cards (or in certain situations). This might make sense for a small format with limited appeal, but as EDH gets bigger and more popular, you'll see more and more people playing with people they have never met before (pick up games with strangers, as it were). A well maintained banned list gives everyone a reasonable base level for what to expect when they play with strangers.


Fair enough, but with the cards that are currently unbanned you never quite know what you're getting into with a new group, or new players. Is mass land destruction something they're okay with? How about combo decks, particularly infinite combos? Do they get off on locking other players out of the game?

There's any number of degenerate and unfun things you can do within the given set of rules for EDH, not even accounting for how players use cards that can swing towards fun or lame. With the myriad of ways currently available to quickly combo off, I don't see how unbanning something like Metalworker is going to make it measurably worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-16 10:44 am 
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Cervid wrote:
Fair enough, but with the cards that are currently unbanned you never quite know what you're getting into with a new group, or new players.


Quite right, but this is what a well maintained banned list is supposed to provide. When you sit down with a group of strangers and mass LD cards are not on the banned list, you should definitely expect people to play them (or at least you shouldn't be surprised or put off when they do). By the same token, I can see that Block Lotus and the big Mox cards are all banned and so I would be put off if the strangers I was playing an EDH game with started plopping them down without fair warning.

Cervid wrote:
With the myriad of ways currently available to quickly combo off, I don't see how unbanning something like Metalworker is going to make it measurably worse.


I agree with you on this to a point. There are many reasons to ban a given card and one such reason can be as simple as trying to weaken a dominant deck strategy, or it could be to remove format warping cards, or to remove cards featuring mechanics that have no part in the game (like dexterity or ante cards), or a few other reasons. To me, it seems that the biggest complaint with banning Metalworker is that whatever the reason it was banned for, the goal has not been achieved. If the goal was to reduce early big mana, more cards need to be banned to have an effect. If the goal was to weaken heavily artifact driven blue-based decks, it didn't work, and either more cards need to be banned from such decks or countervailing cards need to be unbanned (such as Kokusko, the Evening Star) to lead other decks to be stronger.

Overall, I don't think the problem is with Metalworker itself, but with failing to achieve the goal set out with the banning of that card.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-17 10:28 am 
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I accidentally posted this on the Tolarian Academy thread, so I deleted that post and moved it here:

Another thing I forgot to mention was looking at the announcement back in March 2009 which explained why Metalworker was banned:

Sheldon wrote:
Cards that easily and cheaply produce great deals of mana are inherently dangerous to the health of the format. Metalworker is clearly one of those cards, and had to go.


This still makes no sense whatsoever. Khymera has shown that Tolarian Academy produces more mana consistently on average than Metalworker. Rofellos is generating 6 mana on turn 3, one turn faster than Metalworker and with soooooo much more consistency. The only time Metalworker can produce more mana than either of those two cards is if you have an absolutely perfectly sculpted hand and puke out multiple artifacts from your hand in that only maybe three decks can afford to run such a high density of artifacts. Cards shouldn't be banned for the 1 in 100 times they are randomly ridiculous. Consistency is everything, and that's why Rofellos and Tolarian Academy are so much better than Metalworker.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-17 3:35 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
Just to be clear, I haven't actually shown that Tolarian Academy produces more mana more consistently than Metalworker. My results do indicate that, but the statistical significance is very weak (especially for Metalworker), and they shouldn't be touted as statements as fact.

I do think that Tolarian Academy is a more powerful and more explosive card than Metalworker though.

Anyway, everything in cheethorne's last two posts has been pure distilled wisdom. Listen to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-17 11:19 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
I think metalworker is a prime example and I would like to see some consistency in the banlist put in. However, I'm on the other side of the fence and I wouldn't mind seeing some of these explosive mana cards put on the banlist instead. Sol ring lets stuff happen a full 2 turns earlier without even requiring spending a turn to invest as Worn Powerstone, Sisay's Ring, etc do. Tolarian Academy can be tapped immediately, unlike Mealworker, and is much harder to destroy.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Metalworker should be unbanned.
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-25 2:01 am 

Joined: 2011-Jul-28 4:40 am
Age: Hatchling
So why is metalwork er banned o. One list but as of the recent update he is unbanned here but on the wizards site he is still banned?


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