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 Post subject: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 10:32 am 
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Joined: 2010-Apr-22 8:07 am
Age: Hatchling
Location: NW USA
I am not sure if this is the venue to do this, but I would at least like to plant a seed in the minds of the EDH community.

I have been playing since classic sixth, way back in high school, and I have always loved magic. EDH struck me as a fantastic diversion from typical constructed because it allows a wider range of card choices and the ability to cast fantastic, otherwise unthinkable spells. In addition, EDH was conceived of as a casual format, which is what I enjoy most about it. As a casual format, you never have to play against any particular deck if you don't want to, and the goal is not just to win, but to have fun!

That being said, there are dire threats to the integrity of EDH, threats to that which keeps it fun. At the head of these threats is mirrodin rare Mindslaver.

Nevermind the infinite turn combos that mindslaver can achieve with artifact recursion. My case against mindslaver is the very actions of the card itself.

As I discussed, EDH is a casual, fun format. Thus, the point of playing is to have fun playing the game. Mindslaver robs your opponent of this very basic delight. It robs your opponent of being able to participate in the game.

In my life I have encountered various discomforts, but none as vile as watching helplessly as my opponent rapes my hand during my own turn. Yes, I went there. I used the term rape. I do not mean to belittle those who have experienced such violence physically, but rather I use the term to describe how I feel emotionally each time I am mindslavered. Afterwards, as my opponent taps all my lands and starts their turn again, I feel helpless, abused, and violated. These feelings, ladies and gentlemen, are not fun, and thus, not EDH.

I could go on further, and question why wizards would ever print cards which attacked the very foundation of their own game. Even more, they printed that card to be easy to cast and activate. Ten mana of any color is all you need to ruin your opponents day (easily achievable in EDH). Couldn't mindslaver have come in to play tapped (like nevvy's disk) or only be able to activate during the upkeep? Couldn't wizards have given players more time to respond to such a heinous card? Take Sen Triplets for example, a much more balanced form of mindslaver. It doesn't activate until the player's next upkeep, and can be dealt with handily by all five colors. Even if it does activate, you still get to keep your turn!

Now, some people will say that "you could just counter [it]". This is true of course, you could "just counter [it]", if you were willing to play nothing but control decks week after week. But my favorite color is white (if you couldn't tell by the username) and white has very limited counterspells (there is actually one from mirage I think that counters artifact spells!) I don't want to have to spend every moment of my magic career planning for and anticipating mindslavers. This is, once again, disturbing that foundation of fun that EDH was supposed to be based on! If I don't want to get slavered, and I am not willing to base every single one of my decks around avoiding that situation, what am I to do?

Simple. Reach out to the community. I cannot be the only one out there who is experiencing this dilemma. If you have had similar negative experiences with this card, speak up and respond to this post. Mindslaver must be banned, for the sake of the format and for the sake of fun itself!

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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 10:55 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
northwesternpaladin wrote:
Afterwards, as my opponent taps all my lands and starts their turn again, I feel helpless, abused, and violated. These feelings, ladies and gentlemen, are not fun, and thus, not EDH.


What happened to all the other players in the game?


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 10:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I've done it before, but it rarely happens- locked out 3 other players with mindslaver. Involved Rings of Brighthearth and Sharuum... and it doesn't happen often.

Mindslaver is a card that can make the game unfun, though usually just for the one guy.

If its ruining your games try to play things to counter it. And if you can't manage that, talk to the guy and let him know.

But really if its just the one turn he's taking... its not worth crying over.

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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 11:12 am 

Joined: 2009-Aug-03 8:55 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You may ban it. 'Tis the power of any playgroup.

As far as the usage of the word rape, IMO you should have gone with your gut and abstained from the comparision.


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 11:17 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I agree with some of your points but the one that I disagree with most of all is that Mindslaver is always unfun. I just bought one and I plan on using it to help the table as a whole by shutting down the most dangerous player, or just inducing chaos into the game. I've seen a mindslavered player work with the controller so that they are still part of the decision making process and are therefore still playing to game to some degree.

I think it's more of a social problem than a problem with the card. If a player can modify his playstyle with a certain card to be more fun, the next time it hits the table it will reduce everyone's groan-factor and makes for a more fun EDH environment. I don't think it need banning.

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1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 11:30 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Zur is a powerful general.
Usually, Mindslaver kills them on the spot.
Mindslaver should stay.

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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 3:54 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
I put Mindslaver in my first EDH deck as a "rattlesnake" card, like Seal of Doom - That is to say, it was a standing threat which said, "if you attack me, I'll take your next turn". In reality, EVERYONE attacks you. It's a card which gets hated out of a metagame very easily. If Someone is actually trying to abuse it, or building a deck around it, just ban that deck/player from your table altogether. Or make that person fetch all the beer. Recurring Ashnod's Coupon for the win!

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Growing Darkness, taking Dawn; I was me, but now he is gone - Metallica, "Fade to Black"


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 4:48 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-28 3:42 pm
Age: Dragon
I've never seen Mindslaver win a game unless it was down to the last two people. When it's down to the last two people, the quicker it ends the better.

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Check it out sometime.


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 5:05 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mindslaver doesn't ruin a group game, other than making for a long turn. there are piles of ways to get rid of it.

And in a once effect it's fairly easy to react to. the recursion plays are good but again decent graveyard hate is a must in the format anyway, so if it's getting recurred the play group is at fault.

A mind slaver loop is the end of a 1v1 game, but it takes alot of silliness to do that to an entire table without a response.

I ran slaver in my Karn deck and actually won alot of games by beating folks to death with it.


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 5:31 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
You know what's better than taking someone's next turn? Taking two more turns of you own (Time Stretch).

Sure, mindslaver is good, but I hardly think it approaches a bannable level.

Mindslaver doesn't prevent a player from being able to participate in the game, it only stop them for that single turn. You might as well suggest that we ban Orim's Chant, Time Stop, or anything that allows you to take an extra turn, if denying someone a turn is so abhorrent to the core of the format (it isn't).

If White is indeed your favorite color, you might try effects that prevent you from being targeted by mindslaver in the first place, such as:
Gilded Light
Imperial Mask
Ivory Mask
Solitary Confinement
Spirit of the Hearth
and True Believer

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Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 5:41 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:54 pm
Age: Wyvern
Also Runed Halo, Null Rod, and Pithing Needle. There are a lot of cards that answer Mindslaver proactively that fit in a mono-white deck, and they all cost a good deal less mana.


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-22 5:45 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
or altar's light / return to dust / stone cloaker to limit the hurting to 1 turn


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-23 1:18 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
Cervid wrote:
You know what's better than taking someone's next turn? Taking two more turns of you own (Time Stretch).

Sure, mindslaver is good, but I hardly think it approaches a bannable level.

Mindslaver doesn't prevent a player from being able to participate in the game, it only stop them for that single turn. You might as well suggest that we ban Orim's Chant, Time Stop, or anything that allows you to take an extra turn, if denying someone a turn is so abhorrent to the core of the format (it isn't).

If White is indeed your favorite color, you might try effects that prevent you from being targeted by mindslaver in the first place, such as:
Gilded Light
Imperial Mask
Ivory Mask
Solitary Confinement
Spirit of the Hearth
and True Believer


My old Jhoira deck once took 4 turns in a row in a 3 player game and Mindslavered the person to my left who had a billion creatures. I had that person attack the 3rd player, killing them, and then attacked the first player whose creatures were all tapped. That, with the attack steps from all the turns, killed that guy, too.

You forgot to mention another solution to 'slaver that is REALLY underplayed in EDH: Null Rod.

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Growing Darkness, taking Dawn; I was me, but now he is gone - Metallica, "Fade to Black"


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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-23 7:16 am 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
Voidstone Gargoyle or Pithing Needle work great for stopping a Mindslaver.

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Current decks:
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Retired decks:
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 Post subject: Re: The case for banning Mindslaver
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-24 8:57 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-05 5:03 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Algalord
northwesternpaladin wrote:
Whaa whaa whaa whaa!!


It's one card, and one turn. Get over it!!

I'm from the Northwest too, and if I had to play magic with you every Thursday I would vomit.

End of Line

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odit wrote:
I normally my techy , controly decks.

This.

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Jenara: Tell me why I have to be a Powerslave
Karador: Rock out with your cock out
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