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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-11 11:59 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
24x30cl wrote:
I dont think many games will go like that, but a single game like that is enough to ruin EDH for me (and many players). Playing with yourself is best left to that alone time with porn, Vintage or a resolved Time Stretch.


Yet many other vintage cards are allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-11 5:17 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mylon wrote:
24x30cl wrote:
I dont think many games will go like that, but a single game like that is enough to ruin EDH for me (and many players). Playing with yourself is best left to that alone time with porn, Vintage or a resolved Time Stretch.


Yet many other vintage cards are allowed.

But only a few are 'auto-includes'.
Sol Ring goes into any deck, sure, but off the top of my head I can't thing of too many others. Plus there's the cost per utility argument; If a card is monetarily expensive but narrow it's allowable (as long as it's not overpowered) but if it's expensive AND an autoincled it only serves to make EDH that less accessible.
I think that LoA is one of the cards that falls into this category.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-12 11:32 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
tempesteye wrote:
Mylon wrote:
24x30cl wrote:
I dont think many games will go like that, but a single game like that is enough to ruin EDH for me (and many players). Playing with yourself is best left to that alone time with porn, Vintage or a resolved Time Stretch.


Yet many other vintage cards are allowed.

But only a few are 'auto-includes'.
Sol Ring goes into any deck, sure, but off the top of my head I can't thing of too many others. Plus there's the cost per utility argument; If a card is monetarily expensive but narrow it's allowable (as long as it's not overpowered) but if it's expensive AND an autoincled it only serves to make EDH that less accessible.
I think that LoA is one of the cards that falls into this category.

Sol Ring is an auto-include, yes. It's also quite pricy. Nothing on the order of LoA, sure, but $12 is very intimidating price for a single card of a 100 card deck. Also given it's overpowered nature (compared to more recent cards like Ur-Golem Eye (which is in an since a reprint of Sisay's Ring), and the Worldwake Everflowing Chalice, or the signets or the 3 cost colored mana producing artifacts... Sol ring is obviously overpowered relative to other cards, an autoinclude, and pricy for a more casual player.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-12 2:48 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
I think LED's banned because no one in their right mind would want to use it "fairly". It would only ever get played with salvagers or yawgin, so it's banned to discourage that type of deck-building.

Sheldon's stances on "douchebaggery" and social gaming are well documented.

Plenty of combo-happy cards are legal because they also have "fair"/fun uses (eg: kiki-jiki+pestermite, reveillark + dozens of other creatures, mindslaver + academy ruins, etc).

There are also cards that are legal that are far more powerful than some banned cards (eg: necropotence is legal, panoptic mirror is banned).

It's not that it's a bad banned list, it's that it has different goals than you might think.

Unlike sanctioned formats, the EDH banned list isn't intended to regulate the format and put a cap on the maximum power a deck can have, it's there to encourage friendly, sociable gaming. So it singles out some of the most blatant offenders (cards that are really only useful for comboing), and cards that could really alienate casual gamers looking for a social experience (like really expensive cards that have no comparable substitute). And it tries really hard to avoid banning anything that someone might wish to use in a socially acceptable deck.

In sanctioned formats, it's generally assumed that players are going to build the most powerful decks they possibly can, and the banned/restricted lists are made with this in mind to sculpt the format. In EDH, the banned list is there to discourage you from thinking that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-13 12:36 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mylon wrote:
Sol Ring is an auto-include, yes. It's also quite pricy. Nothing on the order of LoA, sure, but $12 is very intimidating price for a single card of a 100 card deck. Also given it's overpowered nature (compared to more recent cards like Ur-Golem Eye (which is in an since a reprint of Sisay's Ring), and the Worldwake Everflowing Chalice, or the signets or the 3 cost colored mana producing artifacts... Sol ring is obviously overpowered relative to other cards, an autoinclude, and pricy for a more casual player.


Maybe $7 or $8, but not $12. What are you using as a price guide, StarCityGames? Go look on eBay, you can get them under $10 without breaking a sweat.

Is $7 for a card that you can play in every EDH deck you'll ever build really too much?

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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-13 4:45 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mylon wrote:
Sol Ring is an auto-include, yes. It's also quite pricy. Nothing on the order of LoA, sure, but $12 is very intimidating price for a single card of a 100 card deck. Also given it's overpowered nature (compared to more recent cards like Ur-Golem Eye (which is in an since a reprint of Sisay's Ring), and the Worldwake Everflowing Chalice, or the signets or the 3 cost colored mana producing artifacts... Sol ring is obviously overpowered relative to other cards, an autoinclude, and pricy for a more casual player.


You've stated reasons for it to better than the crappy artifact acceleration that came late on, not overpowered. I also cant really see how you can see it as an expensive auto-include. What about cards like Damnation, WoG, FoW, Garruk, Demonic Tutor? EDH uses vintage card pool. If you're building on a budget you deck will always be less than if you're Bill Gates' son.

Back on topic, I think Tremor gave a good description on why you cant play said cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-13 9:42 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
$7 for a card is still fairly pricey, and I'll admit I've paid more to build my deck than I want to admit (hardly much at all to be honest but I'm a cheapass). I think it's a hefty price to pay to build one deck (or, if I really wanted to, yes, I could swap it out and place it in any of my decks as I switch to it). But Wizards have acknowledged that, say, everflowing chalice is more balanced and Sol Ring's auto-include nature makes it worth scrutiny. That is, being worth putting in every deck it really limits every EDH deck by being 98 cards + general + Sol Ring. Banning it would help diversify decks.

I'm not so sure how Ancestral Recall is game-breaking more so than stupidly overpowered, since power level alone does not seem to be a factor. But I think price and power are related. If a card was balanced, it would see more printings. And it's desired because it is powerful.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-14 2:36 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-09 11:56 am
Age: Drake
$7 for a card isn't that particularly pricey. This is taking into consideration that you only need 1 copy of the card as opposed to a playset.

I also have no problem with certain cards being 'auto-includes'. This is because they really help the deck runs smoother. Removing Sol Ring from every deck will not help diversify all decks nor will removing demonic tutor from all black decks. To me a big draw to this format is that you are able to use cards that you can't easily freely use elsewhere.

There will always be overpowered cards but overpowered doesn't mean unbalanced. If you don't like the current banlist for this feel free to make some house rules or use the French Banlist.

Ancestral Recall is not only extremely efficient and far more powerful than Sol Ring, it is unable to be obtained by the extreme majority of the players as only the most dedicated magic players tend to own power - for the purpose of cubes more often than not. There is a vast difference between something like Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor and Tolarian Academy to the Power.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-14 8:03 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
chimpion wrote:
Ancestral Recall is not only extremely efficient and far more powerful than Sol Ring, it is unable to be obtained by the extreme majority of the players as only the most dedicated magic players tend to own power - for the purpose of cubes more often than not. There is a vast difference between something like Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor and Tolarian Academy to the Power.


Nah, I think the only difference is the matter of ownership: You own the nice cards like Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor, so think those are okay, but you do not own any of the Power. The same seems to be the case with the LoA and even here with Black Lotus. The people that own the card think it should be unbanned and the people that don't think the current banning stands. And I suppose I'm no different in that regard.

$7 is pretty pricy. Add up 10 such cards in a deck and the deck costs $70, which is more than I pay for any PC game or board games or non-TCG card games. And this is to construct a single deck for this game.

And of course, there's the self-defeating statement, "a big draw to this format is that you are able to use cards that you can't easily freely use elsewhere." In other words, they're banned or restricted in other formats precisely because they are overpowered and unbalancing.

Being a casual format, cards like these are very intimidating. My friend commented yesterday when we played and saw some of the card another friend and I played about how he was bringing a knife to a gunfight. And these weren't even cards like Demonic Tutor or Sol Ring. In fact, those two cards are dangerous because they are so subtle. They're nothing directly powerful and they're not the direct game-winning card, but they allow the game winning card or cards to be played.

What should I do with my friend? Sit down with him and help him build a deck and say, "If you want to not be overshadowed, you need to buy these 20 $1 cards and these 10 $5 cards"? I've already given him the advice to not beat on everyone and make enemies early and let the titans battle it out. My other friend, the other "titan" in my circle of friends, is bowing out of the local league because he simply can't compete with the other decks out there. His deck might be powerful when we play amongst ourselves, but it's nothing compared to the stuff hitting the field at the local card shop. EDH is too intimidating in its current state to be a casual format except for people that already happen to have large card libraries.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-14 2:47 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mylon wrote:
...
What should I do with my friend? Sit down with him and help him build a deck and say, "If you want to not be overshadowed, you need to buy these 20 $1 cards and these 10 $5 cards"? I've already given him the advice to not beat on everyone and make enemies early and let the titans battle it out. My other friend, the other "titan" in my circle of friends, is bowing out of the local league because he simply can't compete with the other decks out there. His deck might be powerful when we play amongst ourselves, but it's nothing compared to the stuff hitting the field at the local card shop. EDH is too intimidating in its current state to be a casual format except for people that already happen to have large card libraries.

Magic is 100% about resources, including what you bring to the table before the game even starts.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Lotus ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-14 6:05 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mylon wrote:
Nah, I think the only difference is the matter of ownership: You own the nice cards like Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor, so think those are okay, but you do not own any of the Power. The same seems to be the case with the LoA and even here with Black Lotus. The people that own the card think it should be unbanned and the people that don't think the current banning stands. And I suppose I'm no different in that regard.

$7 is pretty pricy. Add up 10 such cards in a deck and the deck costs $70, which is more than I pay for any PC game or board games or non-TCG card games. And this is to construct a single deck for this game.


BUT- a PC games costs what? €40-50. How much is it worth after a year? €10? A Sol Ring will still be worth roughly the same in a year or 2 or 4.

As for the ownership thing - you do have a very valid point. Of the people routing for LoA and power 9 im pretty sure all of them own a copy of the card they propose to unban. That being said i wouldnt have a real problem with Ancestral Recall being unbanned (as i cant see how it could cause problems) - after testing - but i cant have a problem with it being banned.

Mylon wrote:
And of course, there's the self-defeating statement, "a big draw to this format is that you are able to use cards that you can't easily freely use elsewhere." In other words, they're banned or restricted in other formats precisely because they are overpowered and unbalancing in that format.



Mylon wrote:
Being a casual format, cards like these are very intimidating. My friend commented yesterday when we played and saw some of the card another friend and I played about how he was bringing a knife to a gunfight. And these weren't even cards like Demonic Tutor or Sol Ring. In fact, those two cards are dangerous because they are so subtle. They're nothing directly powerful and they're not the direct game-winning card, but they allow the game winning card or cards to be played.


Do you have concrete examples?

Mylon wrote:
What should I do with my friend? Sit down with him and help him build a deck and say, "If you want to not be overshadowed, you need to buy these 20 $1 cards and these 10 $5 cards"? I've already given him the advice to not beat on everyone and make enemies early and let the titans battle it out. My other friend, the other "titan" in my circle of friends, is bowing out of the local league because he simply can't compete with the other decks out there. His deck might be powerful when we play amongst ourselves, but it's nothing compared to the stuff hitting the field at the local card shop. EDH is too intimidating in its current state to be a casual format except for people that already happen to have large card libraries.


Its very much possible to build an EDH deck on a budget. It just depends on what you build. A 5c deck will suffer severely without duals, 2 or 3 colors is pretty playable with a budget land base (although i agree that duals will smooth out mana problems).

tempesteye wrote:
Magic is 100% about resources, including what you bring to the table before the game even starts.


nope, luck is part of it, as is strategy

_________________

Teneb, the Harvester
Heartless Hidetsugu
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Reaper King
Ruhan of the Fomori
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Ol
oro, Ageless Ascetic
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Nekusar, the Mindrazer



Sapling of Colfenor
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary



Child of Alara
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Rith, the Awakener
Brion Stoutarm
Experiment Kraj
Razia, Boros Archangel
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Wort, Bogart Auntie
Kaalia of the Vast
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls


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