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Black Lotus ban questioning
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3484
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Author:  Stardust [ 2010-Jan-29 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Black Lotus ban questioning

I think it's very powerful, very fun, and very much going to make you a target if you abuse it. The only reason I can actually see it banning over is for the fact that it's worth over $1000 and can go in any deck, but I really dislike that as a reason for banning a card. :(

Author:  American_Kid [ 2010-Jan-29 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

It's one thing to complain about LoA being banned based on the fact it would go in nearly every deck at a 100USD+ price tag. It is a whole different story when talking about a 700USD+ card that does make every deck better. People complain about Sol Ring and Mana Crypt being a powerful boost to an early game. Therefore I don't think many people will support the idea of have three extra colored mana if they are complaining about two colorless mana. On top of that, LED was banned, correct me if I'm wrong, based on its interactions with Auriok Salvagers...

I won't say it'll never happen but there is a 99.999999% chance it won't leave the banned list. If your play group doesn't mind it, then play with it.

Author:  raleldor [ 2010-Jan-29 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Nice way to take something out of context there to the rest of the post/discussion. Very nice...

Author:  cheethorne [ 2010-Jan-29 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

He might have taken your argument about why to unban Library of Alexandria to an absurd level, but you have to realize that part of the reason that the library costs $100+ is because it is not only very hard to find, but it is also incredibly powerful, thus justifying its high cost, especially compared to the other good rares in Arabian Nights.

Author:  raleldor [ 2010-Jan-29 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Definitely taken to an absurd level. Where a card like lotus not only has 10 times the value of the LoA, but has various ways to just WIN with the card once you get it, where as the LoA doesn't just say 'you win if you play me with this other card'

Sure, it gives you cards if you start off playing slowly. I look at a card like rhsytic study which gives A LOT more card advantage with only an initial mana investment as much more ridiculous. Imagine if it was an artifact? Would that be worthy of seeing a ban? What if it was only worth $1? Would LoA still be worth banning over it?

In the LoA thread I made a deck to abuse the heck out of LoA the best I could and at no point was there an instant win. If i played my Black Lotus and made a deck to get it and use it to just win, yeah, that's a big difference. It's even easier to do.

As for sol ring, I watch those 1 v1 edh games where it seems like the person who got sol ring in their opening hand just wins. Seems really silly. Hell, in just one of my casual vintage decks, I tutor for a sol ring before i'd ever tutor for a mox. Yet it's legal because it's $10. It's just so strange that the dollar value of a card, and not the actual power level of a card represents whether it's ALLOWED to be played.

At least people are happy that I can play my Timetwisters...

Dunno.. Maybe if I started playing Magic yesterday, instead of 15 years ago, I might feel different about it...

Author:  intreped [ 2010-Jan-30 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

American_Kid wrote:
It's one thing to complain about LoA being banned based on the fact it would go in nearly every deck
at a 10
0USD+ price tag. It is a whole different story when talking about a 700USD+ card that does
make every deck better.

Author:  Poesjuh [ 2010-Jan-31 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Personally I think that if you would have a P9 card, except Timetwister offcourse, and you want to play them, you really should ask your playgroup. Everybody loves power, and when you're both a vintage and an EDH player but it hurts that you can't play your power in both, that's probably something a simple question to your playgroup can solve.

At least, if there would be someone in my playgroup with a Lotus, and he really wanted to play it, then by all means, go ahead.

Author:  Mylon [ 2010-Feb-03 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

I think cards should be banned for their power and their price.

Sol Ring hasn't been reprinted for a reason and it does make every deck better. Ur-Golem Eye is pretty common in the circles I play with, and I'm sure if those players had the cash to blow they'd use Sol Rings instead because it's better in every way.

Author:  Cervid [ 2010-Feb-03 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Mylon wrote:
I think cards should be banned for their power and their price.

Sol Ring hasn't been reprinted for a reason and it does make every deck better. Ur-Golem Eye is pretty common in the circles I play with, and I'm sure if those players had the cash to blow they'd use Sol Rings instead because it's better in every way.


It's only a $10 card...

Author:  Jukren54 [ 2010-Feb-05 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Mylon wrote:
I think cards should be banned for their power and their price.

Sol Ring hasn't been reprinted for a reason and it does make every deck better. Ur-Golem Eye is pretty common in the circles I play with, and I'm sure if those players had the cash to blow they'd use Sol Rings instead because it's better in every way.


I just proxy Sol Ring on top of Ur-Golem's Eye. There you go, problem solved.
There are cards that are banned because they are highly expensive and go into any deck, making a vacuum for the card. Others have said that there are more expensive cards than LoA out there that are legal, (talking about the banning of non-Black Lotus cards now,) but those cards are ones that don't go into any deck.

Author:  Sid the Chicken [ 2010-Feb-05 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Stardust wrote:
I think it's very powerful, very fun, and very much going to make you a target if you abuse it. The only reason I can actually see it banning over is for the fact that it's worth over $1000 and can go in any deck, but I really dislike that as a reason for banning a card. :(

There's the problem. If Black Lotus was allowed, it wouldn't take long before it was horribly, horribly abused.
American_Kid wrote:
LED was banned, correct me if I'm wrong, based on its interactions with Auriok Salvagers...

Lion's Eye Diamond was banned for being a degenerate combo piece, and LED is Black Lotus with a fairly significant drawback. To allow lotus and not LED would be like allowing someone to own an AK-47, but not a 22 calibre hunting rifle.

Lol, every time I see a post about LED, my brain immediately goes to Light Emitting Diode, and I have to remind myself I'm reading about magic.

Author:  Glassthegrey [ 2010-Feb-09 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

I run\play in a league-group that allows proxies, and have toyed with the idea of unbanning Mox* + Black lotus just for shitz and giggs.

There are enough board sweepers prevelant in the format that unless you're playing a 5c deck there isn't a whole lot of dmg you can do with them. I mean your typical EDH deck is 3 colors, now lets assume someone has a god hand of a land, 3 moxes, and a lotus. that's 5 cards of your opening 8. that's 7 mana for your other 3 cards in your hand or your general. There aren't that many generals that cost 5-7 that would be too worrysome turn 1 (with the exception of Uril) and any of the cheaper generals were getting powered out that quickly without the help of the moxen

The main reason why we really hadn't done this, nor do I think It's ever really come up in group, is that no one is really interested in the format becoming 5c where your first 7 cards are decided for you.

Author:  chimpion [ 2010-Feb-10 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

If the moxes ever got unbanned the thing I would worry about the most is how much better TA will get. Also they'd completely replace signets.

Author:  BigShow [ 2010-Feb-10 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

Glassthegrey wrote:
I mean your typical EDH deck is 3 colors, now lets assume someone has a god hand of a land, 3 moxes, and a lotus. that's 5 cards of your opening 8. that's 7 mana for your other 3 cards in your hand or your general. There aren't that many generals that cost 5-7 that would be too worrysome turn 1 (with the exception of Uril) and any of the cheaper generals were getting powered out that quickly without the help of the moxen


Assume Sharuum, a three color deck that likes artifacts: Your opening hand Expedition Map, Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Sol Ring, Windfall, land, land. Play the artifacts, use the map to get TA and play it, tap TA for 3, and Windfall carrying a blue mana. Draw Frantic Search, Twiddle, Timewarp, Mana Vault, Time Twister, land, junk. Use Twiddle on the TA, tap it again for 3, play the Vault and tap it for 3, play Frantic Search and untap TA with 2 colorless left, draw Mana Crypt and junk, discard junk, play the Crypt. Tap the TA for 4, cast Time Warp and Timetwister. Draw Black Lotus, Voltaic Key, Time Spiral, Saphire Medalion, Boomerang, land, land. Start turn 1B.

That is a conservative start to how bad the Moxen and Lotus would break Tolarian Academy and the game on turn 1.

Author:  24x30cl [ 2010-Feb-10 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Lotus ban questioning

BigShow wrote:
Assume Sharuum, a three color deck that likes artifacts: Your opening hand Expedition Map, Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Sol Ring, Windfall, land, land. Play the artifacts, use the map to get TA and play it, tap TA for 3, and Windfall carrying a blue mana. Draw Frantic Search, Twiddle, Timewarp, Mana Vault, Time Twister, land, junk. Use Twiddle on the TA, tap it again for 3, play the Vault and tap it for 3, play Frantic Search and untap TA with 2 colorless left, draw Mana Crypt and junk, discard junk, play the Crypt. Tap the TA for 4, cast Time Warp and Timetwister. Draw Black Lotus, Voltaic Key, Time Spiral, Saphire Medalion, Boomerang, land, land. Start turn 1B.

That is a conservative start to how bad the Moxen and Lotus would break Tolarian Academy and the game on turn 1.


I dont think many games will go like that, but a single game like that is enough to ruin EDH for me (and many players). Playing with yourself is best left to that alone time with porn, Vintage or a resolved Time Stretch.

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