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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-02 11:58 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Mylon wrote:
Copy enchantment for 2 mana, copying mana reflection.


You have two Mana Reflections in play. How is Tolarian Academy relevant here at all?

I assume it was an opponent's Mana Reflection that was copied.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-03 11:53 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
chimpion wrote:
Mylon wrote:
Insert random 3 Card combo where some pieces do nothing on their own.


Fixed.

I echo Yawg's statement on TA.


Nevermind the childish "fixed" statement, it merely goes to show that TA is stupidly good in about any scenario that runs a modest amount of artifacts. In a deck designed for it it is going to regularly tap for 5+ mana. Good cards aren't even required to be drawn at that point and the player of it can pull off sick stuff even with a bad hand. The card is easy to get on the field and worth every card slot used in keeping it on the field.

This isn't even counting the cards TA does combo with.

Rofellos as a general is one thing, but (staff of domination aside) he only produces green and is generally more fragile than a land. There really isn't any card that consistently produces nearly as much mana as TA.

And for the record, yes, it was an opponent's mana reflection being copied.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 7:47 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
I agree that Tolarian Academy is the most powerful land in the format. Does that mean it needs to be banned?
If you have a problem academy deck in your meta, chances are mass artifact destruction shuts it off.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 10:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
yawg07 wrote:
I agree that Tolarian Academy is the most powerful land in the format. Does that mean it needs to be banned?


If 9 mana spells are supposed to regularly win the game (such as Rite of Replication, Insurrection, etc) then being able to play such a spell and two counters on turn 6 ought to be a hint that something is too powerful.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 10:29 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Mylon wrote:
If 9 mana spells are supposed to regularly win the game (such as Rite of Replication, Insurrection, etc) then being able to play such a spell and two counters on turn 6 ought to be a hint that something is too powerful.


Except that there are any number of good answers. You can use land destruction, either in the form of spells, or in the form of Wasteland type lands. As yawg said, artifact destruction works well, and people typically don't put enough of it in their decks.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 2:08 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
When I play EDH, I see too many people be too nice to others.

Vince gets turn one Sol Ring, starts ramping and gets turns ahead of others.
Justin is holding Shatter, but doesn't peg Vince's Sol Ring because that isn't nice and could be 'douchey' to do.

Wrong. Blow up Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Gilded Lotus/Rhystic Study/Tolarian Academy whenever you can. That person is rising above and could stand a little downsizing.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 3:34 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
Land is one of the hardest permanents to blow up. And it can be regularly saved with capsize/bounce or grim discovery or crucible of worlds.

Or the effect targeting TA can be countered.

Just because it can be answered doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a banning for being too powerful. And to an extent also a barrier, as not everyone can afford to spend $30+ for one card.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 5:30 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Mylon wrote:
Land is one of the hardest permanents to blow up.


Any deck can run:
Wastelad
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Dust Bowl
Tectonic Edge

Both Green and Red have numerous answers to lands, and Black has many as well.

Quote:
Just because it can be answered doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a banning for being too powerful.


Is it too powerful? I don't think you can absolutely say that it is.

Quote:
And to an extent also a barrier, as not everyone can afford to spend $30+ for one card.


A barrier to what? Playing Blue? Playing artifact decks? It's not a barrier to either of those being good decks. Like any good card, it makes decks better, but I can assure you that neither Blue nor artifact decks relies on Academy to be good decks. It's a good card, but it's kept in balance if your group plays a healthy number of answers to common problems, of which lands are one of them.

_________________
EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 5:35 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Cervid wrote:
Mylon wrote:
Land is one of the hardest permanents to blow up.


Any deck can run:
Wastelad
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Dust Bowl
Tectonic Edge

Both Green and Red have numerous answers to lands, and Black has many as well.

But I mean, again, comparing it to Metalworker...he's even easier to answer, isn't he? And he has summoning sickness too. Yet he's banned and Academy isn't.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 5:58 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
troacctid wrote:
But I mean, again, comparing it to Metalworker...he's even easier to answer, isn't he? And he has summoning sickness too. Yet he's banned and Academy isn't.


Yes, Metalworker is so much ridiculously easier to answer than Academy... considering it's both a creature *and* an artifact.

It's why I still wrap my head around this day on why on earth Metalworker needs to be banned over Academy. I'm fine with having Academy legal, but there is no reason to keep Metalworker banned.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 7:31 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Surging Chaos wrote:
troacctid wrote:
But I mean, again, comparing it to Metalworker...he's even easier to answer, isn't he? And he has summoning sickness too. Yet he's banned and Academy isn't.


Yes, Metalworker is so much ridiculously easier to answer than Academy... considering it's both a creature *and* an artifact.

It's why I still wrap my head around this day on why on earth Metalworker needs to be banned over Academy. I'm fine with having Academy legal, but there is no reason to keep Metalworker banned.

Yeah I'm in total agreement, Academy is fine, and why the hell is Metalworker banned?

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-04 7:36 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
yawg07 wrote:
Yeah I'm in total agreement, Academy is fine, and why the hell is Metalworker banned?


Agreed.

_________________
EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 2:15 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 1:48 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Heerhugowaard, Netherlands
In my playgroup i am actually surprised if i see my academy or even coffins stay in play for longer than 5 turns :p
Stripmine / wasteland are quite common here. but it does balance games often.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 3:49 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-09 11:56 am
Age: Drake
troacctid wrote:
But I mean, again, comparing it to Metalworker...he's even easier to answer, isn't he? And he has summoning sickness too. Yet he's banned and Academy isn't.


As people have stated before this is more of a problem with Metalworker as opposed to TA itself.

TA is certainly powerful but I feel that it is not so powerful as to be banned. It isn't something gamebreaking like Sway of the Stars or format defining like Biorhythm. I feel that it is part of the group's responsibility to make sure that TA and the number of artifacts remain under control. For example my Sharuum deck has warped the metagame enough that Return to Dust is now a staple if you're in white and graveyard hate is slowly becoming more common as someone just made a Scion of Ur Dragon reanimator deck. Put simply EDH decks are clunky in nature and slow to change and often you can play a deck which is tinkered towards the metagame.

Btw the argument that TA can be recurred back from the graveyard (etc) is redundant. The opponents can do the same.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 6:11 am 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
Graveyard hate has also become pretty common in my playgroup. Between my Scion re-animator and a friend's zombie tribal its not unlikely to see either of our graveyards get exiled or for my pithing needle to call reito lantern to stop everyone from recycling cards.

While decent yard hate can be rather color specific from what I've seen, Relic of Progenitus should be an auto-include in any play group that has recursion problems. While it can't target specific cards it can exile everything in a pinch.

Just like if recursion is an issue the solution is to run yard hate, then if tolarian academy is an issue run more land/artifact hate. You'll either stop the land or severely cut its power. Sure not everyone can run the best land hate ever printed, but Tectonic edge is just as good as a wasteland for keeping TA in check.

I'm assuming the argument for the ban of Metalworker is that while TA can generate more mana, Metalworker can be abused with Staff of Domination with only three artifacts in hand.

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