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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 9:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Boshea wrote:
I fail to see the logic in banning all restricted cards. If a card is restricted you can only run one in any format. Sure there are a few that break the game pretty bad, but they're already banned. So what's the point of banning every restricted card from a format where you can only run one of any card.

just that. The nature of the format makes a deck more inconsistent than constructed counterparts, making certain restricted cards that much more swingy, as answers are harder to come by.

I don't care to ban anything really, this is just my guess.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 10:44 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
Boshea wrote:
I fail to see the logic in banning all restricted cards. If a card is restricted you can only run one in any format. Sure there are a few that break the game pretty bad, but they're already banned. So what's the point of banning every restricted card from a format where you can only run one of any card.

just that. The nature of the format makes a deck more inconsistent than constructed counterparts, making certain restricted cards that much more swingy, as answers are harder to come by.

I don't care to ban anything really, this is just my guess.


Right. Restricted cards are naturally more powerful than other cards. In singleton format, where normal cards don't have the advantage of being fairly consistent to compensate, restricted cards are even more attractive.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-09 11:56 am
Age: Drake
Mylon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Boshea wrote:
I fail to see the logic in banning all restricted cards. If a card is restricted you can only run one in any format. Sure there are a few that break the game pretty bad, but they're already banned. So what's the point of banning every restricted card from a format where you can only run one of any card.

just that. The nature of the format makes a deck more inconsistent than constructed counterparts, making certain restricted cards that much more swingy, as answers are harder to come by.

I don't care to ban anything really, this is just my guess.


Right. Restricted cards are naturally more powerful than other cards. In singleton format, where normal cards don't have the advantage of being fairly consistent to compensate, restricted cards are even more attractive.


There is a bit of a fallacy here in that due to the deck building restrictions of edh in its singleton nature, what affects one card effects all other cards just the same. Answers aren't harder to come by nor are they 'easier'. Your statement is just a bit too broad and general in nature. In fact to me the nature of EDH actually encourages and rewards greater flexibility and answers. With such a large pool of card slots to fill, inevitably you will have more methods of dealing with something than a more streamlined 60 card build. This is partly because your deck is already partially pre-sideboarded. You have greater angles of which to attack opposing players and greater ways in which to defend. The only thing I may say is that while you may have more flexible answers, some may not be as efficient as others.

Vintage is a vastly different format than that of EDH. There can be absolutely no comparison at all. Saying that you should ban cards on the Vintage restricted list because it is 'obviously more powerful' than 'normal' cards - I think Force of Will, Mana Drain, Protean Hulk, Tabernacle (etc) has something to say about that to a few of those cards - is a moot and entirely irrelevant point.

It's like saying Limited Resources should be banned in Vintage because it's banned in EDH. Both formats are extremely different and any attempt to just mirror the restricted/ban policies of another format is ludicrous. Another way to look at it is that if it's restricted in Vintage it obviously should be banned in Legacy. Obviously this won't happen and nor should it happen.

In reading a few threads by the rules committee from memory they wanted to keep the banlist as small as possible and limited to things that attack the foundations of the game whether it be sway of the star attacking the concept of the format, the moxes are a major barrier to entry or biorhythmn which is just plain dumb for the format. If there is a problem that you have then you can easily discuss it in the playgroup as there are many many different groups with different levels of competitiveness and there is no way they can cater to all.

Besides those reasons I personally believe that they also exist as a framework of such in that if you were to play an EDH game with a group of random people there are certain cards that you wouldn't expect to see and have to deal with.

But as for what cards people believe should/shouldn't be banned, there will always be dissenters.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 2:54 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
chimpion wrote:

There is a bit of a fallacy here in that due to the deck building restrictions of edh in its singleton nature, what affects one card effects all other cards just the same. Answers aren't harder to come by nor are they 'easier'. Your statement is just a bit too broad and general in nature. In fact to me the nature of EDH actually encourages and rewards greater flexibility and answers. With such a large pool of card slots to fill, inevitably you will have more methods of dealing with something than a more streamlined 60 card build. This is partly because your deck is already partially pre-sideboarded. You have greater angles of which to attack opposing players and greater ways in which to defend. The only thing I may say is that while you may have more flexible answers, some may not be as efficient as others.


I totally agree with you. I was playing the advocate and stating what I perceived to be the reasoning behind a call for banning 'restricted' cards. the consistency of a deck is based on deck construction. With such a vast cardpool it isn't difficult to find redundant types of card; you or someone at the table should almost always be able to find an answer.

If someone doesn't have enough answers in their deck they better be asking the harder questions.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 4:12 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
It's not always about "answers". You're thinking too defensively and not offensively enough. What about the accelerators? Turn one, sol ring, turn 2 demonic tutor, turn three drop a specific 5 color mana cost spell that no other cards could manage. Many of the restricted cards are restricted because they're obviously better versions of other cards. My deck runs Diabolic tutor, but if I owned the card I'd definitely grab a Demonic tutor which does the same job for half the cost and doesn't telegraph my next move. It's an auto-include for black. Compared to the other cards that serve a similar purpose, this card has no downside to make it less appealing. It's more powerful in every way. It does not break the game by itself, no, but it helps get the job done. Same with Sol ring.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 6:13 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Mylon wrote:
It's not always about "answers". You're thinking too defensively and not offensively enough. What about the accelerators? Turn one, sol ring, turn 2 demonic tutor, turn three drop a specific 5 color mana cost spell that no other cards could manage. Many of the restricted cards are restricted because they're obviously better versions of other cards. My deck runs Diabolic tutor, but if I owned the card I'd definitely grab a Demonic tutor which does the same job for half the cost and doesn't telegraph my next move. It's an auto-include for black. Compared to the other cards that serve a similar purpose, this card has no downside to make it less appealing. It's more powerful in every way. It does not break the game by itself, no, but it helps get the job done. Same with Sol ring.

Is this an argument for banning certain cards or just an explanation for how/why some of them are exceptionally good?

In the context of a multiplayer EDH game having an explosive start can be bad unless you combo off and win the game right then, in which case you may not be playing too many more games with that particular play group. If you don't combo off you make yourself a target for the aforementioned answers everyone should be running.

In a duel, I think things like sol ring should not be played as it is far less likely your opponent will have the specific answer for a game winning threat played early or under protection because of a random explosive start.

Yes the game is about answers. I'm not saying that your ENTIRE deck should be decidicated to hate cards... but to play green and not run Krosan Grip is asking for trouble (I don't have a single krosan grip in any of my green decks by the way... But its multiplayer, someone else 'always' counters what I can't or kills it for me). It has been my consistent experience that anyone who complains about an aspect of the game- from over powered cards, to counterspells, to mana screw- is failing in some aspect of their deck construction OR their mindset when they play. Build a bad deck you had better either not mind losing, or learn to build a better one.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 11:22 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
Build a bad deck you had better either not mind losing, or learn to build a better one.


Okay, I'll give you credit about the explosive start. It does tend to paint a bullseye.

But I really don't agree with your closing statement. A black deck without demonic tutor is simply a bad deck. It doesn't have the cheap tutor effect for pulling a win condition or, if really necessary, pulling an answer. Another card might not leave enough mana to cast the spell pulled in the same turn, or is too obvious of a telegraphed move. And in singleton format nearly any kind of tutor is powerful because of the consistency it provides. Likewise with the original topic. A blue deck running a decent number of artifacts without TA is a bad deck. Using this kind of logic, a "good" deck becomes almost cookie-cutter and expensive at the same time, which is not healthy for the format.

Like I've stated earlier, my friend saw my Kresh Deck and felt very outclassed because he didn't have nearly as good of a deck (and likewise, didn't have nearly as good as a card base). I have another friend in a similar position, but he's less likely to say anything about it because he's just that quiet type and will get bored if he knows he doesn't have a chance. These are friends that played Magic years ago and recently got back into it because of a third friend and I playing EDH. As my own card collection was laughable, I put down some cash to buy specific cards, otherwise I would simply have a bad deck and would have to get used to losing, just as you said. But this barrier to entry may be intimidating to other players. I could tell my two new friends, "If you don't want to lose all of the time, you can put down $70 and get some good cards, or if you want some GREAT cards, let's see how much cash ya got". I'd rather tell him cards X, Y, Z are banned because they're too powerful, so grab these cards for $10-20 instead.

My friend, the one that already has 2 decent decks, is already bowing out of playing at the local card shop league because his deck can't compete with the stuff being played there, including what seems like ubiquitous sol rings and demonic tutors and similar cards. A gentleman's agreement might be fine within my circle of friends to keep things tame, but doesn't cut it for the wild world outside of that.

The current banlist is designed to take out the stuff that absolutely wrecks the game. It does not pay any heed to the subtle cards that increase deck performance over cheaper, more recent alternatives that, cumulatively, allow a more expensive deck to really outclass a more 'casual' deck and ends up frustrating or alienating these casual players.

So the options really are, "Pay some cash for good cards, get used to losing, or avoid the format altogether." Not a very friendly way to explain the short banlist. At this point I would like to re-iterate that "restricted" in other formats really means, "We know this card is unbalanced and banning it would piss a lot of people off, so we'll limit it instead." Banning it would help balance the game, but like any multiplayer game, if the nerf bat comes out the nerd rage is on.


Last edited by Mylon on 2010-Feb-16 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 11:41 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Mylon, I guarantee you I can make a deck that can play with the big boys by not spending more than $1 on any single card. Sure, Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor help, but they're not necessary. The advantage that they provide is not so immense that they should be banned, or have your deck considered bad for not playing them. Only one of my decks uses Sol Ring (out of 9 decks) and I'm pretty damn sure none of the players in my playgroup would claim that a single one of the decks that I've built are bad decks, or not good enough to compete. In fact, I probably "win", as in the normal definition, as many or more games than anyone else (not bragging, just trying to prove a point).

The idea of a "staple" in EDH is valid, as there are cards that are just solid includes no matter your particular deck's strategy. However, they are not "play or lose". If you don't believe me, I can build such a deck and post it for you.

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EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-17 11:33 am 
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Joined: 2009-Apr-16 9:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Regina, SK
Cervid wrote:
Mylon, I guarantee you I can make a deck that can play with the big boys by not spending more than $1 on any single card.
Agreed. I've seen some pretty damn good EDH decks built with almost entirely commons.

Magic, especially singleton multiplayer Magic, is not about the power of your individual cards; it's about the synergy between them. You need to learn how to see that and build your deck with that in mind if you're trying to win. If you don't believe me, look at what cards actually are on the banned list. All of them either find combo pieces or are combo pieces with the exception of super-broken cards like Biorhythm and Coalition Victory. Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor aren't even close to the same since they don't just say "you win" right on them.

Don't get me wrong, the incremental advantage that other players have by casting Demonic Tutor for 2 versus you casting Diabolic Tutor for 4 will add up over time. The difference is that a well-built deck can be reasonably expected to fight through that.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-24 2:21 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
Uh, the power of your individual cards is pretty important. You can't rely on synergistic effects appearing together due to the 100-card singleton format. Unless they have synergy with your general obviously...

You can't rely on your deck overcoming the disadvantage of paying double mana for similar effect simply by being "well-built". What if your opponents decks are also well-built?


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-24 2:39 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Tremor wrote:
Uh, the power of your individual cards is pretty important. You can't rely on synergistic effects appearing together due to the 100-card singleton format. Unless they have synergy with your general obviously...

You can't rely on your deck overcoming the disadvantage of paying double mana for similar effect simply by being "well-built". What if your opponents decks are also well-built?


The fact that it is a singleton format increases the parity among decks. For example, my Kraj deck runs a lot of commons and uncommons worth pennies on the dollar, along with a bunch of $0.50-$1.00 rares. However, it can compete equally with a totally tricked out Teneb list, full of expensive cards, at a multiplayer table. You can get plenty of powerful EDH cards out of the bargain bins, because what is powerful in EDH and what is powerful in vintage/legacy/extended/standard is completely different, although there is some overlap.

I've found that this format rewards clever deck building as much, or more, than any other format. Having to pay 2BB for Diabolic Tutor, whereas your opponent can pay 1B for Demonic Tutor, isn't going to make much of a difference in the large majority of situations. Obviously if your ideal strategy relies on a few cards that you simply can't afford or find, you may have to adjust your strategy a little bit. However, I stand by my assertion that a competitive multiplayer deck can be built using inexpensive cards.

You could also use proxies if your group allows it.

Now, a lot of this changes as you move away from multiplayer and start playing 1v1. The nature of the multiplayer game tends to dilute individual card power to such an extent that you can run weaker, less expensive versions and not see a lot of difference.

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EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-25 10:24 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-09 11:26 am
Age: Drake
Location: Cookeville, TN.
Windfall wrote:
Glassthegrey wrote:
I run academy because it's nice on the few occasions someone lets it generate 3 mana. but more often than not in EDH academy sits around as a legendary island because of the prevelance of Disk, O-Stone, and Akroma's Vengance in EDH. If you're playing multiplayer might as well swap it out for a island.
There is definitely a disconnect between the way that you utilize academy and the way that others utilize academy. The vast majority of the players that run academy do so specifically because it will always generate more mana than is reasonable. It is highly unlikely that disk, o-stone, or vengeance come down fast enough to have any effect on the how much mana academy can produce. Empirically speaking, academy is never just a legendary island or as mildly effective as you portray it to be.


No the disconnect is the difference between theorycrafting and Practicality. Theorycrafting states that my deck with 50 artifacts will always tap tolarian academy for 10 blue mana, and I'll Always have my game winning combo in hand.

In practicality your deck with 50 artifacts in it still has 50 non-artifacts If you can somehow get to Academy quickly (not hard). you'll likely only have 3-5 artifacts before turn 5 which is still pretty good. except everyone else is running mana acceleration and they get to their disks and o-stones quickly. resetting your academy back to 0. EDH is a multiplayer format so the number of available asnwers to your academy and the likelyhood of someone having\playing it is still alot better than you actually having your academy before turn 4.

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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-25 11:22 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You're oversimplifying Academy - treating it like it's a 0-mana "ritual" sorcery that generates U equal to the number of artifacts you control. The problem with Academy is that it's a permanent that can repeatably tap for an overwhelmingly disproportionate amount of mana, especially if it sticks around for more than one tap. I don't know about you, but where I'm from Academy comes down somewhere close to Mind over Matter, Minamo, or Deserted Temple, and then the entire table gets sticky when the Academy player combos off.


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-25 12:23 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Spekter wrote:
You're oversimplifying Academy - treating it like it's a 0-mana "ritual" sorcery that generates U equal to the number of artifacts you control. The problem with Academy is that it's a permanent that can repeatably tap for an overwhelmingly disproportionate amount of mana, especially if it sticks around for more than one tap. I don't know about you, but where I'm from Academy comes down somewhere close to Mind over Matter, Minamo, or Deserted Temple, and then the entire table gets sticky when the Academy player combos off.


Infinite mana is incredibly easy to attain if you choose to go after it. I'm not sure that's a justifiable reason to ban Academy (I also don't think metalworker deserves to be on the ban list, either).

_________________
EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-25 1:41 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
Cervid wrote:
However, I stand by my assertion that a competitive multiplayer deck can be built using inexpensive cards. <snipped a lot of wasted text defending this assertion>
I never challenged that assertion. Why so combative?
Glassthegrey wrote:
No the disconnect is the difference between theorycrafting and Practicality. Theorycrafting states that my deck with 50 artifacts will always tap tolarian academy for 10 blue mana, and I'll Always have my game winning combo in hand.
You aren't very good at math, are you?


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