Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-22 10:31 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 8:41 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
Boshea wrote:
I'm assuming the argument for the ban of Metalworker is that while TA can generate more mana, Metalworker can be abused with Staff of Domination with only three artifacts in hand.


Then it should be Staff of Domination that should be banned, NOT Metalworker. Considering Staff already fuels Rofellos to go infinite along with other creatures such as Magus of the Coffers, banning Staff of Domination kills two birds with one stone: nerfing Rofellos and giving Metalworker absolutely zero reason for him to be banned.

_________________
onlainari the ragequitter: http://www.mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewt ... 199#p72199

CommanderCast: Community, Strategy, and Technology: http://www.commandercast.com/

Occupy Kokusho


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 8:56 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
Surging Chaos wrote:
Boshea wrote:
I'm assuming the argument for the ban of Metalworker is that while TA can generate more mana, Metalworker can be abused with Staff of Domination with only three artifacts in hand.


Then it should be Staff of Domination that should be banned, NOT Metalworker. Considering Staff already fuels Rofellos to go infinite along with other creatures such as Magus of the Coffers, banning Staff of Domination kills two birds with one stone: nerfing Rofellos and giving Metalworker absolutely zero reason for him to be banned.

I agree completely, I was just stating why its likely been banned over TA.

_________________
Kicking your teeth in is a valid strategy.
Current decks:
Radha, Heir to Keld-Super Elfball
Retired decks:
Scion, of the Ur-Dragon-Dragons, Dragons everywhere
Wort, Boggart Auntie-Goblin Shenanigans
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer-I will Prevail


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
chimpion wrote:
Btw the argument that TA can be recurred back from the graveyard (etc) is redundant. The opponents can do the same.


I'm not aware of a way to play an opponent's land from their graveyard. The point of the matter is that TA is so powerful that constantly recurring it is worth it. Dedicating several card slots for the sole purpose of keeping that one land in play is a sure way to gain a large advantage.

I'm on the other side of the fence with Metalworker. Metalworker is banned, yet TA is more powerful. Therefore TA ought to be banned too.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 1:33 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-28 3:42 pm
Age: Dragon
Mylon wrote:
chimpion wrote:
Btw the argument that TA can be recurred back from the graveyard (etc) is redundant. The opponents can do the same.


I'm not aware of a way to play an opponent's land from their graveyard. .


I believe you may have misinterpreted what chimpion was saying.

Your argument: Recurring TA is too good.
Chimpion's counterargument: You can recur the stuff that blows TA up just as well, if not better.

_________________
My EDH (and general Magic) blog: scoutsedh.blogspot.com

Check it out sometime.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 1:51 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
Except you don't win by blowing stuff up. TA can certainly assist a win. Spending 6 deck slots to blow up TA and/or recur means of blowing it up isn't nearly as powerful as spending 5 slots to recur TA or outright protect it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-05 2:36 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Land hate + graveyard hate = bye bye Tolarian Academy. Also, before you argue that this requires two cards to combat Academy, it also requires Academy + another card to work around land hate.

Or you could just play things like Shatterstorm and take away what makes Tolarian Academy good in the first place.

_________________
EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-06 3:25 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-09 11:56 am
Age: Drake
Mylon wrote:
Except you don't win by blowing stuff up. TA can certainly assist a win. Spending 6 deck slots to blow up TA and/or recur means of blowing it up isn't nearly as powerful as spending 5 slots to recur TA or outright protect it.


Some simple ways to stop TA.

1) Shatterstorm
2) Crucible + Strip Mine
3) Energy Flux
4) Kataki
5) Blood Moon
6) Back to Basics

You definitely do not require that many slots to stop TA. Not to mention most of the cards that stop TA do so as splash damage and have other uses.

_________________
Image


Without beginning or end, the ring stretches into the infinite


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-07 12:56 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tolarian Academy doesn't fundamentally break the game any more than does Channel, Rofellos, Mana Drain, Sol Ring, or Mana Crypt. There are plenty of huge mana boosts in the game that are a lot more cluprit than Academy.

Stating the existance of Crucible of Worlds (and Academy Ruins for the Crucible) should in any way influence whether or not Academy get's banned is silly. Land recursion, like every other type of recursion, was an inevitability in the evolution of the game of Magic. It was going to exist. But saying recursion methods warrant the ban of the cards they recur is like saying, "Living Death exists, so ban this creature ______. Replenish exists so, ban this enchantment ______. Sharuum exists, and as a General no less, so ban this artifact ______." Just insert a "broken" card for the respective card type. While you're at it, "My God, Regrowth exists. Ban everything else that's too powerful."

To elaborate further on the recusion subject, mana acceleration tends to be less desirable as the game progresses, but extra powerful in early turns. This brings me to my next point. Comparing Academy to Metalworker is unfair. They're almost the exact opposite of each other. Academy's power, theoretically, should scale up with game length. Metalworker's power plummets the turn after it's played. Academy CAN provide early game mana boosts in the right deck with the right hand, but often just scales linearly throughout the game until a sweep spell hits. Metalworker almost always DID provide early game mana boosts in the right deck, almost regardless of the hand, and by the time the sweep spell comes, it's usually too late. As long as it's an artifact centered deck built properlly, Metalworker probably was going to tap for 8 - 10, or you should have muliganned. Consider this: you have a hand full of 6 mana plus bomb artifact spells. Which card would you rather have in your opener: Academy or Metalworker?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-08 11:51 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
trevor wrote:
Consider this: you have a hand full of 6 mana plus bomb artifact spells. Which card would you rather have in your opener: Academy or Metalworker?


Academy, because by the time I get to untap with Metalworker, he's already in the graveyard.

_________________
onlainari the ragequitter: http://www.mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewt ... 199#p72199

CommanderCast: Community, Strategy, and Technology: http://www.commandercast.com/

Occupy Kokusho


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-09 7:26 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
Surging Chaos wrote:
trevor wrote:
Consider this: you have a hand full of 6 mana plus bomb artifact spells. Which card would you rather have in your opener: Academy or Metalworker?


Academy, because by the time I get to untap with Metalworker, he's already in the graveyard.


This. Lands are the hardest permanents to destroy and rarely are priority number one. Even maze of ith and the like can survive being on the board a few turns before they get blown up, so people don't stack a whole lot of LD in their deck so they can draw it when they absolutely need it. So recursion on lands is that much more annoying.

It's not recursion itself that's the problem though. It's a very powerful card that's hard to destroy. I mean look at Library of Alexandria. Requires more conditions to make it work, doesn't even generate colored mana, and it's banned. I'm sure if TA was printed in an older set it would cost something similar to LoA.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-10 2:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-09 11:56 am
Age: Drake
Library of Alexandria is considered powerful and expensive because not only is it old but because it is the best land at drawing cards and has no drawback. LoA is a very powerful drawing mechanic which cannot be countered and was considered to be one of the most powerful cards with sol ring after the power 9. I don't think you quite understand how good LoA is.

Personally to me despite the far majority giving good reasons and reasonable solutions you will never ever be convinced otherwise. I mean I provided without any real effort 6 cards that bone TA and does so as SPLASH DAMAGE. We've all kept responding to your arguments in a reasonable manner but most times you just revert back to the same arguments without responding fully to ours.

It is powerful yes but not banworthy.

_________________
Image


Without beginning or end, the ring stretches into the infinite


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-11 3:35 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Hey, Mylon, you wandered into my thread so I had a look at this from page 5 to here. I noticed a couple of posts that said the same thing I'm about to say. If that's now three people in three pages, can you please explain why Tolarian Academy doesn't exist in my or others playgroups? It's actually quite a common card in non EDH casual multiplayer games here at my club.

It is true we don't have a sharuum player. We will in two weeks, I just got another player to join our group. He'll probably play it.

_________________
BAN WILLOW SATYR

DCI Level 1 Judge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-11 7:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
onlainari wrote:
Hey, Mylon, you wandered into my thread so I had a look at this from page 5 to here. I noticed a couple of posts that said the same thing I'm about to say. If that's now three people in three pages, can you please explain why Tolarian Academy doesn't exist in my or others playgroups? It's actually quite a common card in non EDH casual multiplayer games here at my club.

It is true we don't have a sharuum player. We will in two weeks, I just got another player to join our group. He'll probably play it.

Thats weird...

Not a single TA in your whole group? Maybe you guys are too nice to play such a 'broken' card.

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-11 11:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
No, it's honestly because no one plays a deck with enough artifacts. It's not weird, bugger all blue decks on this forum play it either.

_________________
BAN WILLOW SATYR

DCI Level 1 Judge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy
AgePosted: 2010-Apr-12 10:57 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Apr-16 9:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Regina, SK
onlainari wrote:
No, it's honestly because no one plays a deck with enough artifacts. It's not weird, bugger all blue decks on this forum play it either.
That's actually true. There are very few decks apart from Arcum or Sharuum that play this card. It's just too narrow to warrant a ban.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: papa_funk and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: