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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-07 4:37 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
TheOnlyOne wrote:
The problem i see from most of the peops playing this format is that they think playing big creatures is good (and ofcourse its what makes formats fun), but if you play multiplayer Combo Decks always are the better choice (or some Stax like decks that beat all opponents and stop them from doing anyhing), its always a matter of how fast u can go off and kill everyone, if u make that before round 4 its stronger than ANY creature deck you can play, and dont say that the players gang the combo player, the thing is if 3 of the 7 players go combo you may stop 1 but still lose to the other 2, and so you have won nothing.


So the two combo players sit in the corner and give each other golden showers while the other people have a good game. what's your point? You clearly have noooooo idea what you're talking about, or play where there is zero disruption. Combo decks seldom kill an entire table of people, not because they get attacked to zero too quickly (though this does happen), but because of hand, stack and board disruption. We recently had a huge thread on good disruption in EDH. I think any deck that anyone would take to a tournament would be packing quite a bit. And in multiplayer, personality goes a long way because politics comes into play. You might want to work on that - the interacting with people in a positive manner part. Just expecting to run in and go off by turn 4 isn't going to happen. Then you might actually have to (gasp) play Magic with people.

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-07 5:58 am 

Joined: 2008-Apr-05 4:28 pm
Age: Wyvern
I wont attack you, but its really not that easy to kill a combo with just "some Disruption".

A combo deck that loses to a Counterspell is a incredible bad Combo deck, like a Aggro Deck that loses to "one" Wrath is a Bad Aggro Deck. If your playgroup is slow and full of Control its ok, if nobody in your area plays combo and you just want to play casual its sure no problem at all, but consider that some people actually want to win, an win not with some random luck, you want to win because your Deck is the Best Deck out, or you are the Best Player (playing a combo deck can need some more Brain than playing Aggro for example).

THe funny thing with "Disruption" is always that making "answers" is less lickly to happen than making "questions".
If i play Flash nobody knows if i will kill them right now on turn 1, they might not even have a land in play and are dead, i call this combo incredible strong and so people will play it if your goal is to win games (which Tournaments are, you know i hope).
And if more than two players need to hate you that you dont win, maybe just one of the others will combo kill you.

The brutal thing in multiplayer isnt that "a single" Combo is the greatest Threat, if everyone packs a Combo (because its the best way to win against mutliple Opponents) you cant hate that much with Counterspell or Discard, than you must pack Massiv Multi Disruption like "very very fast" Armageddons / Mindslicer / Arcane Laboratory / Trinisphere, and you know what happens than? With 8 player Multiplayer 6 play Combo and 2 play Stax-Like Decks, both nearly ignore the fact that this is EDH and both nearly ignore the fact that this is Multiplayer.

You call this unfun? Yes perhaps it is, and so a Banned List helps to eliminate that brutal unfun Decks out of the format, something you already do, just with a "not existing" Banned List.



EXTRA: Example with Flash/Hulk/Necromancy/Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite/BodyDouble/Revaillark Combo Deck that wins with Multiple Combos that work really nice together.

If the Combo Player goes for Intuition End of Turn, and you guys dont have a Counterspell (and ofcourse a Combo Player can wait for a moment most are tapped out and the time is right), in his Turn you are dead, thats turn 4.
If he has a Hand with Necromancy he goes with End of Turn Entomb and Necromancy and you are all dead too.
Its so incredible sure that you guys are dead its totally nuts.

Ofcourse multiply can have Force of Will or anything other, but nearly each card has that problem and ofcourse not every deck plays it and not every deck can play nothing just to have a answer for "possible" Combo Kills.

If a Disruption players fokuses on the COmbo PLayer and the COntroll players counters what he can, than you will die from the Aggro Player which simply can kill you while you try to avoid to die to a combo, because u cant play Wrath of God or you are tapped out and Combo Dead.

EDH is good with Combo, dont think ALL Combos are sick, some are ok, relativ slow and relativ easy to disrupt (All the combos that requiere 3+ cards and each part needs to be played are slow, bad and ok for EDH).

Combos that are incredible fast, brutally strong and nearly unstoppable, if the Banned List is not to handle this problem, than there is no other meaning of a Banned List.

I know you guys play Casual and so its hard to try to understand what i say if u never played a "good" Combo Deck, and EDH Tournaments are nice and fun, but surely need a Banned List that works and doesnt kill it before it ever started.

Thx till here ...

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-21 7:35 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-20 7:43 pm
Age: Wyvern
i really don't see upheaval being overpowered. floating a ton of mana to make it work so you come out on top is really nothing exclusive to upheaval, and it's harder than it sounds. and as i've said before, if Card A is banned, and Card B does the same thing as Card A but does it better, then Card B should be banned. otherwise it's like banning shock & leaving lightning bolt legal.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-21 9:31 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-08 12:01 am
Age: Drake
The main problem with upheaval is the amount of artifact mana acceleration avalible in this format.

If you cast upheaval and then drop your mana vault, sol ringyour thran dynamo, and then some beefy creature, you are going to have an INCREDIBLE board advantage vs the players who werent allowed to float mana.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-21 9:42 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-20 7:43 pm
Age: Wyvern
PsIKoTiC wrote:
The main problem with upheaval is the amount of artifact mana acceleration avalible in this format.

If you cast upheaval and then drop your mana vault, sol ringyour thran dynamo, and then some beefy creature, you are going to have an INCREDIBLE board advantage vs the players who werent allowed to float mana.


this is very true. everybody already knows this. the problem i have with it being banned is that there are SOOOOO many other things you can do that trick with. it's not like upheaval is the only board wiping spell in the game. thus, banning upheaval opens the door to banning wrath of god, armageddon, etc., which would be bad.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-22 12:31 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-23 4:14 pm
Age: Drake
Horse wrote:
PsIKoTiC wrote:
The main problem with upheaval is the amount of artifact mana acceleration avalible in this format.

If you cast upheaval and then drop your mana vault, sol ringyour thran dynamo, and then some beefy creature, you are going to have an INCREDIBLE board advantage vs the players who werent allowed to float mana.


this is very true. everybody already knows this. the problem i have with it being banned is that there are SOOOOO many other things you can do that trick with. it's not like upheaval is the only board wiping spell in the game. thus, banning upheaval opens the door to banning wrath of god, armageddon, etc., which would be bad.


This, I think, is an invalid argument. You are declaring that there is a slippery slope between the banning of Upheaval and the eventual banning of all other board sweepers, and this isn't the case. As has been pointed out in your "This banned list is silly" thread, the bans come from months of playtesting and deliberation and are not made offhand after just one bad experience with them. Upheaval is not like Wrath except in that they share a trait of 'sweeper' - but the concept of a 'sweeper' can apply to many things - Aether Snap, Purity, Tranquility, Shatterstorm, etc.

Unlike Jokulhlaups or Obliterate, Upheaval leaves the player playing it with all that artifact mana back in his hand, so that he may replay it. A Haups player has to be more careful setting up his post-Haups turn, by choosing not to play an early Mana Vault or Sol Ring, sacrificing tempo in return for a good recovery. I think this contributes to Upheaval being banned over the other sweepers.


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