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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-16 8:12 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Expedition Map
Knight of the Relequary
Scapeshift
Tolaria West
War Gate
Sylvan Scrying
Reap and Sow
Weathered Wayfarer

All these can find any land in your deck. This doesn't include the straight up tutors like Vamp or Demonic or Beseech.
I routinely use AT LEAST the Map in almost every deck, and many of the other if I'm, in the correct colors.

The point is that it's usually easy to find a specific land (or any card for that matter) if you have a well designed deck. Even early on.
The 100 card deck size isn't necessarily a huge drawback.

_________________
Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-26 10:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-16 3:05 pm
Age: Hatchling
It makes me sad that I can't use my Library of Alexandria in EDH. I've only tested a few games with it in my Rafiq deck just because it runs knight of the reliquary to help me fetch it but even still, I think I saw it once, and by that time, I had no hand. I didn't get to play it in my opening hand to utilize the true brokenness of it.

I could dedicate a lot more tutorage like crop rotation to help me get it, and I guess that's what I'd have to do to see if it's truly just game breaking. Sol Ring has always seemed like the most 'broken' card that goes in any deck, but I'd like to see how it compares to the Library. I'll make some adjustments to try and break it, and play it tonight (with my opponent's permission) to see just how ridiculous it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-27 12:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
If I had my way I'd ban about a quarter of all the magic cards. There are some cards that have never been reprinted because they are overpowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-27 8:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mylon wrote:
If I had my way I'd ban about a quarter of all the magic cards. There are some cards that have never been reprinted because they are overpowered.


It's a good thing you don't have your way then.

_________________
Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-27 8:44 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Genomancer wrote:
Mana Drain is more likely to be banned than Library is to be unbanned.

(The former is pretty unlikely)


This is why you should just play Library. Somebody who routinely goes infinite to win games is telling you not to play a long-term advantage card that's slow and makes your game more fun. This is where you grow some balls, start telling people it's the way casual is and put the damn card in the deck. So some random group plays casual without their most badass cards, one of which is really weak and certainly deserves some playtime. Who gives a flying @#*%&, carefully explain how your deck doesn't go infinite and if anyone gives you any crap after that it's on them for putting the power level there.

If you're dueling you probably have sol ring or mana crypt in your deck so library isn't even on PAR with those cards. If you're multi you can't seriously think Library will dominate a large table...and if you do you need better opposition. It's just a monetary restriction, and in my opinion that restriction needs to be removed from this format. It doesn't make sense with the values (baneslayer for example) going so high that normal cards are only half of library's value, and it being banned says to the format "hey this card is slow but we're banning it arbitrarily because it's expensive." Library is the ONE card that really, really says that. And honestly, hasn't volrath's stronghold or academy ruins enabled an infinite lock at your table quite a few times? I mean, QUITE a few. Just tell me how many infinite combos Library of Alexandria has been responsible for fetching, regrowthing, enabling, locking out of board, etc. With ruins or volrath's, you counterspell 1 spell per turn or in all likelihood you lose. Library doesn't do that, it's not the same threat level, it needs to be unbanned. The fact that it's not in consideration means you get to play with it illegally, which in my opinion is the best way to play cards anyway. Who wants to draw a turn 1 sol ring when they can just palm it, I mean...


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-27 8:57 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 8:18 pm
Age: Wyvern
Broken wrote:

Library needs to be considered for unbanning. Keep in mind, we're playing 100 card decks, and we're limited to ONE copy of each card. I see my Library of Alexandria maybe 15% of my games. If I don't see it in my opening 7, it's power goes down drastically as the game progresses. It's just one of those nostalgic cards I love seeing as I shuffle.
Also, the argument of it's monetary value hurting it's chances of being unbanned is ridiculous. I bought my Library for $80 for EDH. To play competitive standard you need 4x Baneslayer Angels. That's $180. Unless you're me, and have 4x foil. ;)
I'm going to be bitter with Sheldon and co. until this card is unbanned. I win 90% of my games with Sorin and Magister Sphinx. Ban them for god sakes.


I have to agree, LoA should not be banned. It is good, great even, and could be played in every deck, conditions that are met by several other legal cards already, Sensei's Divining Top being the most obvious comparison.

There are already several expensive legal cards, none of which are seen as hurdles for entering the format. Or at least not enough of a hurdle to require banning.

I can understand that it being a land makes it better than other good draw engines, like Phyrexian Arena. But the power level is clearly lower than Necropotence, or SDT for card draw/quality and lower than Tolarian Academy/Gaea's Cradle/Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins/etc for lands that do cool stuff.

Does the combination of being expensive, useful, hard to stop make it worth banning? I don't think so, and i don't think most people would care any more about it being legal than they would care about Rofellos becoming a legal general. It doesn't unbalance the format, and should be removed fromthe banned list.

Disclaimer: I haven't owned a LoA in about a dozen years, but i have played with them in many, many group games and tournaments, back when Magic was young.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-27 10:06 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-06 11:40 pm
Age: Drake
warble wrote:
It's just a monetary restriction, and in my opinion that restriction needs to be removed from this format. It doesn't make sense with the values (baneslayer for example) going so high that normal cards are only half of library's value, and it being banned says to the format "hey this card is slow but we're banning it arbitrarily because it's expensive."


It's also nearly an auto-include, which suggests that something is wrong. Being a land, it occupies a slot that is often used by boring cards that have no special abilities.

As for price, I think price should be a more important limiting factor. Being a casual format, for those of us that haven't been playing magic for years and years and have accumulated thousands of dollars worth of cards, an EDH deck costs can easily cost $100 and much more. That is pretty expensive, all to experience Magic from a very limited viewpoint of an unsanctioned format with only one deck.

Baneslayer is so expensive because it's the best beatstick for 5 mana ever, and it happens to be legal in standard. Not very balanced compared to most other cards. In any balanced game, baneslayer would be banned, but as that would cause too much ragequitting from people that paid with a kidney to get a playset, it's not banned to preserve profits.

Card bannings piss people off, but the price for the card ought to be a warning that the card isn't quite balanced and might deserve it.

And again remember that EDH is supposed to appeal to casual players. Very expensive cards like Mana Crypt or Workshop or even Tolarian Academy tend to scare people off.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-28 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
I'm going with Library being unbanned as well. It is another one of those, special cards in magic history. Plus, it is relatively cheap right now compared to what it was before. It can be easily found for less the 150USD and more often then not, somewhere around 100USD. Then again, I'm one of those people who has a hard time spending the minimum for a deck. My current EDH deck is barely finished and is nearing the 1k mark. I'm still missing an Imperial Seal, Bazaar, Workshop, Timetwister, and recently 70$ (SCG pricing) Tarmogoyf. My only arguement against the unbanning of Library is the fact that it does go in every deck and it does cost more then a week's worth of food. Another point to note however, is the French banned list for 1v1 play does not include Library of Alexandria. So if it isn't banned in 1v1 play, I find it hard to believe it is too powerful for mulitplayer. So if the card is banned simply on price alone, I find that a bit unnecessary.

EDIT: As for Tolarian Academy, this card is getting really annoying. I'm probably going to start a topic about this one if I can't find it elsewhere in the forums.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-28 2:21 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-08 1:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Broken wrote:
Also, the argument of it's monetary value hurting it's chances of being unbanned is ridiculous.


It's fundamental to why the card shouldn't be unbanned! Maintaining EDH as a format where one can choose to play fairly competitively without expensive cards is vital to maintaining its popularity, just like Vintage was never really considered a legitimate format in many circles until 5/10-proxy unsanctioned tournaments took off.

Any card that falls at the intersection of "expensive" (priced in the three digits) and "auto-include or almost so" should be kept out of the format. Because of how Magic's been run over the years, it is quite likely that zero cards will ever be added to this list that aren't already there, so all this really entails is keeping 8 of the power nine and Library of Alexandria banned. I think that's an entirely reasonable restriction to keep on the format and one that was quite smart to put in early on.


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-29 10:30 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-16 3:05 pm
Age: Hatchling
I made a deck that absolutely tries its best to abuse the library of alexandria and various other lands it can fetch to put into play.

At one point I had it out, with Vesuva copying it, Awakening allowing me to do it every turn, Rings of Brighthearth to copy the ability, and vedalken orrery allowed me to keep my hand down to the size i wanted during these shenanigans.

It was very fun, and kinda broken. Took a long time to set up, and if it wasn't for other players playing things like howling mine, it would of taken even longer. It felt like fun EDH, but it didn't instantly make me win. All it did was make everyone gang up on me to the point where my card advantage wasn't enough to see me through. It wasn't an instant "i win" or anything like that.

I think it's very powerful, very fun, and very much going to make you a target if you abuse it. The only reason I can actually see it banning over is for the fact that it's worth over $100 and can go in any deck, but I really dislike that as a reason for banning a card. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2010-Jan-29 11:28 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-16 3:05 pm
Age: Hatchling
One thing I wouldn't look forward to if it was unbanned, is yet another plains with writing on it in most the decks i play against...


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