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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-11 9:08 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
crz87 wrote:
I would like to hear the thoughts from the EDH committee about this.


Then I would suggest reading the 20-odd posts, by RC members or knowledgeable forum folks, responding to those (and other) arguments, multiple times over.

This isn't directed at anyone one person, just blowing off a bit of steam: The recurring trend of users creating new accounts, raising old issues, and then expecting/demanding that their own personal voice be recognized/responded to is... well, not terribly endearing. :P I read every post written on this forum, and try to consider every one made in good faith, but some threads are seriously taxing :/ Derf.

G


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-13 4:23 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
Then I would suggest reading the 20-odd posts, by RC members or knowledgeable forum folks, responding to those (and other) arguments, multiple times over.


just because the rules committee has provided responses to these arguments doesnt mean that said responses are justified are correct. virtually every time someone presents real statistical data which provides siginificant evidence to disprove the "logic" behind bannings and unbannings, you enter the thread in an attempt to diffuse the supposed uproar. when is the rules committee going to bring forth their own data to prove that metal worker is more broken than rofellos?? thus far, none of you have. you have never provided evidence to support your claims. so how serious do you really think they can be taken?

Quote:
This isn't directed at anyone one person, just blowing off a bit of steam: The recurring trend of users creating new accounts, raising old issues, and then expecting/demanding that their own personal voice be recognized/responded to is... well, not terribly endearing. :P I read every post written on this forum, and try to consider every one made in good faith, but some threads are seriously taxing :/ Derf.


if youre not going to respect the views/opinions of people who are just joining this forum community then why allow anyone at all to join? quite often i have seen the comments made by new-comers to this forum dismissed because their post count isnt high enough. wtf is that all about? from what ive seen, the only views expressed here that the rules committee show any respect for are those that are in agreement with the RC's decisions. through censoring, threatening to ban, and actual bannings, you and the rest of the RC have shown great disrespect for people on these forums just because they think that the rules committee is making mistakes.... as though you are all somehow infallible. if the people who post here cant expect their "personal voice" to be heard then what exactly is the purpose of this forum?

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-13 7:21 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-08 6:09 am
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draaaak wrote:
virtually every time someone presents real statistical data which provides siginificant evidence to disprove the "logic" behind bannings and unbannings,

you know mark twain ?

funny fellow, he was.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-13 7:25 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
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Ymirsson wrote:
draaaak wrote:
virtually every time someone presents real statistical data which provides siginificant evidence to disprove the "logic" behind bannings and unbannings,

you know mark twain ?

funny fellow, he was.

That's a rather roundabout way of saying you think the statistics are exaggerated. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-13 8:11 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
troacctid wrote:
Ymirsson wrote:
draaaak wrote:
virtually every time someone presents real statistical data which provides siginificant evidence to disprove the "logic" behind bannings and unbannings,

you know mark twain ?

funny fellow, he was.

That's a rather roundabout way of saying you think the statistics are exaggerated. :roll:

Actually, is a polite way of saying you can bend statistics to support pretty much any position you want to.

Even playing a thousand games isn't a large enough sample size. Ten thousand just begins to approach an acceptable number in order to develop an idea of trends.
Anyone who plays 5 games and then uses that as "proof" is ... misguided.
Which is the point that, I believe, Geo was trying to make; individual games do not prove anything. Individual metas' do not prove anything. The aggregate meta is what you have to look at. And I don't believe that most of the people who have posted have any idea of what the aggregate meta looks like.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-14 11:41 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
While it's true that statistics can be abused, I'm still a strong supporter of hard data and proper statistics... objective measures of reality. I mean, there's three chapters in my thesis on statistical analysis of complex problems.

However, statistics must be done right to be useful; done wrong they're worthless at best and misleading at worst (that's what Twain was trying to say).

The MOST important part of doing stats right is telling people HOW you did it. There is a solid trend towards that principle in these forums, which I've supported wholeheartedly and when I've seen good data I've recognized it publicly. When I've seen anecdotal or unsupported supposition, I either ignore it or call them out on it. And yes, I do the same thing in private RC discussions.

Also important is sufficient sample size... but that doesn't have to be thousands of games, or even hundreds of games, for a proof-of-concept. If someone wants to demonstrate that an idea is worthy of more consideration (there are lots of ideas and we can't look at all of them) a small sample size is fine... but 4 games or "the games I remember" doesn't cut it. You'll see for example that I recently posted my testing methodologies for Rofellos, which consisted of only 24 games in fact. But the variance in those games was low enough that I judged it significant. You might not, but that's why I give you what I tested and how I tested it, so that you have the requisite context.

Lastly, statistical analysis which demonstrates something conclusively is still not convincing if it starts from one or more "invalid" assumptions. In the case of EDH rules, "invalid" sometimes means "disagrees with us"... but I do my best in those cases to explain (or link to explanations of) where our premises disagree, what ours are, and why.

An small example of demagoguery in this thread alone? Highlighting only part of my quote in a seeming attempt to distract from the point proper: my critique of new posters wasn't specifically with their post count. Plenty of people have made good points with a new account and have influenced our way of thinking. My problem is with new people raising OLD ISSUES which have previously been discussed, and expecting us to revisit them again just because they didn't read or don't acknowledge the old arguments and conclusions. If they quoted, or linked, to those old arguments to prove they'd read them and then explained why they disagreed with the premises, logic, or conclusions... hey, I'll happily consider them. But "I'm new here and I think X is a problem you must fix" when X has three or four long threads about it previously... well, if they're not going to put in the time, why should I?

Post count IS relevant because trust is relevant. We all have limited time to spend on things and while I make an effort to read every post, that alone takes a lot of time... seriously considering every post ab initio would be an inefficient allocation of our time. If you've posted in the past then I've had a chance to evaluate you as a person, and if you've shown you're usually making a good point I'll spend more time considering it. If you've convinced me you're an idiot, frankly I'll spend less time considering it. I'm still unlikely to toss out an obviously novel thought regardless... vis: some of draaaak's good posts, even in light of his bad ones. But if I've never seen you before, I'm going to read the post and go with my initial judgment of the idea and argument presented... if it seems bad, or rehash, I'm not going to dig deeper -- that's reserved for people who have demonstrated I'm better off doing so.

G

PS: For anyone who cares, I submit the following as evidence that I'm not exactly being lazy:
Code:
mysql> select username="Genomancer",count(*) as postcount,sum(pl) as lensum, avg(pl) meanlen, sqrt(avg(pl*pl)) as rmslen from (select poster_id,length(post_text) as pl FROM phpbb3_posts) as postlenq join phpbb3_users on (poster_id=user_id) group by poster_id order by lensum desc limit 10;
+-----------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+-----------------+
| username="Genomancer" | postcount | lensum | meanlen   | rmslen          |
+-----------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+-----------------+
|                     0 |       970 | 754190 |  777.5155 | 1295.6389173391 |
|                     1 |       745 | 721781 |  968.8336 | 1484.1117448295 |
|                     0 |       819 | 544221 |  664.4945 | 1090.2920114949 |
|                     0 |       514 | 486857 |  947.1926 | 1774.9103473824 |
|                     0 |       506 | 480876 |  950.3478 | 1281.0906682961 |
|                     0 |       600 | 454136 |  756.8933 | 1251.4027169541 |
|                     0 |       669 | 449375 |  671.7115 | 1230.8943562682 |
|                     0 |       126 | 421350 | 3344.0476 | 4786.2941276305 |
|                     0 |       533 | 389003 |  729.8368 | 1202.6621416744 |
|                     0 |       915 | 376359 |  411.3213 | 787.63421859076 |
+-----------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+-----------------+


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-14 1:42 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
draaaak wrote:
just because the rules committee has provided responses to these arguments doesnt mean that said responses are justified are correct.


This is not a mathematical equation. There is no concept of correctness.

Your goals for the format do not match the RC's goals for the format. That is your prerogative. However, using poorly-founded statistical analysis to claim that we're implementing your vision of the format incorrectly is, well, wrong on multiple levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-14 2:25 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
I'd rather see multiple-card threads like this one simply go away. There are old threads that can be necro'd, containing a lot of arguments that don't need a retelling.

I just don't see any good reason why this thread needs to exist. I'm not saying the topic at hand shouldn't be discussed but that there are other threads to do so in. One card, one thread and suddenly we won't have the Roffy / Metalworker thing all over every banning / unbanning thread.

Please, continue to discuss Roffelos in the Roffelos thread. Continue to discuss Metalworker in the Metalworker thread. Continue to refer to Roffelos in the Metalworker thread and vice-versa, those cards show some obvious parallels. If we keep it out of this (or the next 'n' new threads) then we don't have to repeat ourselves and we can stay on target.

Not that I'm an authority around here or anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-30 2:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Sep-06 9:26 pm
Age: Wyvern
Genomancer wrote:
My problem is with new people raising OLD ISSUES which have previously been discussed, and expecting us to revisit them again just because they didn't read or don't acknowledge the old arguments and conclusions. If they quoted, or linked, to those old arguments to prove they'd read them and then explained why they disagreed with the premises, logic, or conclusions... hey, I'll happily consider them.


I searched. From what I can tell, there are no conclusions other than "Metalworker is broken OMG!!!" and "It's almost as bad as Rofellos" (which was banned at the time and thus no longer applicable as an argument). I haven't seen any decklists which make Metalworker broken. I'd like to see one. Not just a general's name, a deck list please. Show me a deck which clearly so abuses Metalworker that it's clearly as unfun as Braids,

I conclude that this is due to two things:
a) The search on the forum sucks donkey balls and is a major PITA. This is undoubtedly true, as all forum searches suck donkey balls and are a major PITA. Note, for example, that search will ignore the word "ban".
b) There are no arguments I find compelling, so I discard them out of hand. As such, I can't argue against them as every post I read is equally poorly thought out or not relevant. The signal-to-noise is too high for me to find what any consensus was.

Please, post links to threads that you find are still valid or are most valid, because I can't find any which are remotely relevant any longer.

People will always bring up old issues. It doesn't matter if posters are new or old, right or wrong. The same questions will come up over and over and over. It's not going to stop until someone makes a FAQ and sticky it. It's kind of your lot in life as a moderator and format administrator to have to deal with recurring issues. "Use the search" is as useful as saying "works for me" for computer troubleshooting. It's not helpful, it doesn't add to the conversation or debate, and it's dismissive to the point of being rude.

"We already talked about this but I can't be arsed to show you" is not very convincing. Would you accept that response from Wizards on a card ruling? Or from a judge at a PTQ? Hell, if *you* can't find it, and you've got so many posts and so much experience and face value and authority, how are we n00bs to manage? Post counts and registration dates... that merely proves you're vocal. It's a total straw man. Being a mod and on the rules committee merely suggests you ought to have a better formulated answer than not giving one at all and "how dare you still ask?". That's status quo bias.

Again, please, show me a broken deck. I want to see one. I'm still finding it really hard to believe that it's worse than any of the other mana accelerators.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 11:33 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-09 11:26 am
Age: Drake
Location: Cookeville, TN.
here is why Rofellos isn't banned and metal worker is

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

It's a legendary creature, and as such it's often used as a general, actually I've yet to see any deck run rofellos not as a general. However running rofellos as a general means you're mono-green... which means the only thing you can really do are cast a fairly large assortment of fat unhasty beaters that travel to the bin before they get a chance to swing.

Metalworker

Is not a legendary creature. but is a artifact, and if it was legal would be a staple in about 4 different EDH Decks that I can think of right off of the top of my head. and the funny thing about colorless mana is that it can be used to cast things like time spiral or awesome artifact creatures like Darksteel Collosus. and with colored artifacts it's become even easier to get 6 mana from a metalworker on a consistant basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 4:34 pm 
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Glassthegrey wrote:
here is why Rofellos isn't banned and metal worker is

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

It's a legendary creature, and as such it's often used as a general, actually I've yet to see any deck run rofellos not as a general. However running rofellos as a general means you're mono-green... which means the only thing you can really do are cast a fairly large assortment of fat unhasty beaters that travel to the bin before they get a chance to swing.

Metalworker

Is not a legendary creature. but is a artifact, and if it was legal would be a staple in about 4 different EDH Decks that I can think of right off of the top of my head. and the funny thing about colorless mana is that it can be used to cast things like time spiral or awesome artifact creatures like Darksteel Collosus. and with colored artifacts it's become even easier to get 6 mana from a metalworker on a consistant basis.

...Rofellos can cast awesome artifact creatures like Darksteel Colossus too. And fat unhasty creatures? Try Winter Orb, Mishra's Helix, Mindslaver, Tooth and Nail, Planar Portal, Staff of Domination, and Tower of Fortunes.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 6:05 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Glassthegrey wrote:
here is why Rofellos isn't banned and metal worker is

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

It's a legendary creature, and as such it's often used as a general, actually I've yet to see any deck run rofellos not as a general. However running rofellos as a general means you're mono-green... which means the only thing you can really do are cast a fairly large assortment of fat unhasty beaters that travel to the bin before they get a chance to swing.


Concordant Crossroads. So much for "un-hasty".
Staff of Domination. Oops I win.
Umbral Mantle. Did you remember your chump-blocker on turn 2? (If I drew Rancor too ... well, it doesn't really matter whether you did or not, now, does it?)

Quote:
Metalworker

Is not a legendary creature. but is a artifact, and if it was legal would be a staple in about 4 different EDH Decks that I can think of right off of the top of my head. and the funny thing about colorless mana is that it can be used to cast things like time spiral or awesome artifact creatures like Darksteel Collosus. and with colored artifacts it's become even easier to get 6 mana from a metalworker on a consistant basis.


And green mana can't be used for those same things? (Okay, you're not going to be running Time Spiral in a Rofellos deck.) Getting 6 mana from Rofellos on a consistent basis isn't easy? (Don't forget Rofellos comes down a full turn earlier, unless you hit Sol Ring or Mana Vault ... and land in play tends to add up to a lot more than artifacts in hand before too long.)

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 9:27 pm 
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Location: Monmouth, OR
Additionally, Rofellos hits play on turn 2 ALWAYS since he's the general.

Metalworker cannot even come remotely close to matching Rofellos's consistency and speed. Rofellos hits play one turn earlier and with enormously greater consistency than a singleton card like Metalworker.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 10:39 pm 
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Bacon Bits wrote:
[Edit: Dudes... fix your script to properly URL encode like "http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/search/default.aspx?name=+[%22Lion%27s%20Eye%20Diamond%22]" and this problem goes away]

Lion%27s Eye Diamond - fix%27d :)


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