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 Post subject: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 9:48 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
Hello Community;

Lately, my meta has featured a lot of pressure style decks, like Nekusor. In responce, I built a WU Daxos of Meletis deck for some utility and lifegain. I'm about to provide an example of something that actually occured.

It was my turn, and I had 12 mana available. Daxos was in play, and was able to attack. Across the table one of my opponents had his general in play as his only blocker. It was Avacyn, Angel of Hope. I drew my card for turn and it was Vanishment.

I cast Vanishment for it's miracle cost, returning Avacyn to the top of my opponents library. Then I attacked that player. Daxos says "Whenever it deals combat damage to a player, exile the top card of that player's library. You gain life equal to that card's converted mana cost. Until the end of turn, you may cast that card and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast it."

So this is how it went. The player revealed and exiled Avacyn, and said "In responce I redirect Avacyn from exile zone to command zone...you don't gain any life and you can't cast it"

I said.. "Actually, I think I would gain 8 life at LEAST, even if you redirect the general from the exile zone to the command zone. Also...Daxos ability doesn't say "You can play cards exiled by Daxos on the turn they were exiled by paying their mana cost"...It says "Until the end of turn, you may cast that card and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast it."


So my question is...Can I now Cast Avacyn from his command zone for 8 mana? lol. Or would it cost 10 mana because it has already been cast once? Or can I not cast it at all?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 9:55 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I believe you can, for 8 mana.

EDIT: Also, he can't command zone "in response", because the replacement doesn't use the stack. Regardless, It That Betrays lets you get generals that are sacrificed and put in the CZ, and this seems exactly the same to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:03 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I believe you can, for 8 mana.

EDIT: Also, he can't command zone "in response", because the replacement doesn't use the stack. Regardless, It That Betrays lets you get generals that are sacrificed and put in the CZ, and this seems exactly the same to me.

The piece of evidence that proves it to me is how the card doesn't say, "Until end of turn, you may cast that card [from exile] and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast it."

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:14 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
CanadianCole wrote:
So my question is...Can I now Cast Avacyn from his command zone for 8 mana? lol. Or would it cost 10 mana because it has already been cast once? Or can I not cast it at all?


I would have to say no. When you go to exile the creature, they can command zone it instead. It is a replacement effect, and as such his commander never actually gets exiled. Rules. "12.If a Commander would be put into a graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead"


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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:16 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I believe you can, for 8 mana.

EDIT: Also, he can't command zone "in response", because the replacement doesn't use the stack. Regardless, It That Betrays lets you get generals that are sacrificed and put in the CZ, and this seems exactly the same to me.


But that example states that when the creature is saced..not when it goes to the GY... so when you sac your general, they have the chance to take it, before it would go to the GY and be subject to the replacement effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:17 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
Rasalom wrote:
CanadianCole wrote:
So my question is...Can I now Cast Avacyn from his command zone for 8 mana? lol. Or would it cost 10 mana because it has already been cast once? Or can I not cast it at all?


I would have to say no. When you go to exile the creature, they can command zone it instead. It is a replacement effect, and as such his commander never actually gets exiled. Rules. "12.If a Commander would be put into a graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead"



So by your interpretation...would I gain the 8 life at least?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:23 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
CanadianCole wrote:
Rasalom wrote:
CanadianCole wrote:
So my question is...Can I now Cast Avacyn from his command zone for 8 mana? lol. Or would it cost 10 mana because it has already been cast once? Or can I not cast it at all?


I would have to say no. When you go to exile the creature, they can command zone it instead. It is a replacement effect, and as such his commander never actually gets exiled. Rules. "12.If a Commander would be put into a graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead"



So by your interpretation...would I gain the 8 life at least?


I would think again no... due to the replacement effect. You go to exile the top card, the owner of the card replaces the exile with putting it into the command zone instead, therefore, you didn't actually exile a card. I could be wrong.. but it feels like this would be an example of removing the target of an ability on the stack. The rules say "if it would be exiled, instead do this".


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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:24 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
You gain the life. You can cast even if replaced to command zone. It would cost normal mana for you for the first time (+2 if you managed to do it again). This casting would not increase the commander cost for avacyn's owner.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
Rasalom wrote:

I would think again no... due to the replacement effect. You go to exile the top card, the owner of the card replaces the exile with putting it into the command zone instead, therefore, you didn't actually exile a card. I could be wrong.. but it feels like this would be an example of removing the target of an ability on the stack. The rules say "if it would be exiled, instead do this".



I hope you are wrong..lol...I want this to work because it's hilarious.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:33 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
CanadianCole wrote:
Rasalom wrote:

I would think again no... due to the replacement effect. You go to exile the top card, the owner of the card replaces the exile with putting it into the command zone instead, therefore, you didn't actually exile a card. I could be wrong.. but it feels like this would be an example of removing the target of an ability on the stack. The rules say "if it would be exiled, instead do this".



I hope you are wrong..lol...I want this to work because it's hilarious.

I would wait until crokaycete or another person chimes in before you call this thread finished.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:48 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You can cast it - Daxos tracks the object the card becomes when it's moved, regardless of what zone it's moved to. Daxos says "that card", not "a card exiled with", so it doesn't care what zone it's in, only that it can see the object it became. You will gain the life. You will not have to pay the commander tax, as the wording on the tax rule specifies it applies to casting your own general from the command zone (likewise, your casting of it won't increase the owner's tax).

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The commander tax tracks who has cast a given commander (usually the owner). If daxos gets him a second casting of avacyn it will cost him +2

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:35 am 
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niheloim wrote:
The commander tax tracks who has cast a given commander (usually the owner). If daxos gets him a second casting of avacyn it will cost him +2

Only if you use Daxos to cast the general from the Command Zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:35 am 
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niheloim wrote:
The commander tax tracks who has cast a given commander (usually the owner). If daxos gets him a second casting of avacyn it will cost him +2


I don't think that's true;

Comp. Rules wrote:
903.10. A player may cast a commander he or she owns from the command zone. Doing so costs that player an additional {2} for each previous time he or she cast that commander from the command zone that game.

MTGCommander.net rules page wrote:
While a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. As an additional cost to cast a Commander from the command zone, its owner must pay {2} for each time it was previously cast from the command zone. (ie: Olivia Voldaren costs 6BR to cast for the third time.)

Both these rules specify that the owner must pay the tax. They do not say anyone else has to. Also note that the rule on this site is slightly different, in that it implies that if I cast your general from the command zone, your tax DOES increase, whereas the comp. rules say it's only when YOU cast your general.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Daxos Steal Other peoples generals?
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:42 am 
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Actually, I just went to double-check, and it looks like Sid and I were using the same outdated CompRules. The one Sid quoted (and I had referenced) was from the 2013-11-01 update (which is the one Google links directly to). Current version (2014-02-01) has reworded it so it does track every player/commander interaction:

Comprehensive Rules wrote:
903.10. A player may cast a commander he or she owns from the command zone. A commander cast from the command zone costs an additional {2} for each previous time the player casting it has cast it from the command zone that game.

So, niheloim is right as of the Born of the Gods rules update.

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