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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 9:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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Location: Midgard
niheloim wrote:
Segrus wrote:
It begins with grabbing powerhouse cards and evolves into insta-win combos. It did when it was legal, and it would do it again now.
that cannot be known. Koko warped formats... Not anymore. Staff of domination is now fine... Rofellos was still borked... After some testing.

If I had to wager I would say " gonna still be borked", but I think testing it has some merit after so many years.

I'm not really up to date about the Modern format, but Gifts Ungiven was played it Modern at some point. Also, I believe Gifts Ungiven is still restricted in Vintage, the premier "broken deck" format. Both of these are pretty current markers for how Gifts is seen in the real world. No, obviously these are other formats with different rules and different metas, but it provides insight into various other players' opinions about the card without having to make them sit down to test a deck.


I'm continuing to ask other players I know. This one has no relation to the previous one I asked--they don't live in the same state, and they don't know each other. He went through some basic analysis of what the card actually does, and then said this:

Quote:
ultimately, it'd easily become a format staple on the same reasoning as sol ring or top

I further questioned him, asking, "You say it would become a format staple, so do you think it would [be] utilized in decks outside of combo decks?"
Quote:
not only that, but it would turn non-combo decks into "lucky" combo decks. include 1 or 2 2-card combo in your aggro/midrange deck just in case you draw them or gifts

shoot, fetching 4 cards that would alter the board dramatically in favor of the player should be an easy task considering the cards available

I asked him what EDH decks running blue he owns would he play Gifts in:
Quote:
all of them

right now, it'd be edric, nekusar, and riku, since those are the ones i have

but any blue deck i made would have it included, it's too good not to run

My point in including this is to provide more real-world examples of players who would run Gifts outside of combo decks. Having played EDH with this guy, I know he doesn't run combo decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:09 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
So? Did anyone doubt it would be a staple? The question is if it will behave as it once did.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:30 am 
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niheloim wrote:
So? Did anyone doubt it would be a staple? The question is if it will behave as it once did.

Do you mean getting included in every deck that can run blue and creating incredibly linear lines of play, or do you mean that it will be one of the go-to tutor cards for every blue combo deck? Notice, when this card was banned the Philosophy document on banning cards and the goals of the RC hadn't been printed yet, and most bannings were attempts to reign in various combo decks and lockdown strategies. Therefore, warping the format wasn't actively taken into consideration--this is probably why there's no discussion at the time about such a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 10:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
You're point?

It seems to me that a card that wasn't banned for reasons which are now the standard for bans deserves a look over.

I agree that it is a logical progression to go from staple to linear combo enabler... But being logical does not mean something is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:55 am 
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niheloim wrote:
I agree that it is a logical progression to go from staple to linear combo enabler...But being logical does not mean something is true.

Only if the basis for the logic is unsound, and not true to begin with.

I'm basing my logic on Gifts Ungiven not being less powerful, and that we now have the added banning criteria of being format warping. I assert that Gifts Ungiven is not less powerful than it once was, because the card pool has not drastically changed since the time of its banning--in fact, it's virtually proven that with a game like Magic, with an ever-increasing card pool, individual cards naturally become stronger. Yes, they've spent a significant portion of their energy and time trying to match the power level of spells and creatures, but that's the trick: while Tooth and Nail and Survival have gotten stronger over the years, Gifts Ungiven still tutors for creatures too. The unsound logic is saying T&N and Survival are stronger now due to creatures being better, but Gifts Ungiven is weaker. They both tutor for creatures; however, Gifts actually tutors for any card. While spells and lands haven't made leaps and bounds in power like creatures have, they haven't gotten exactly weaker.

Furthermore, my support for it being format warping is by providing evidence players would run the card in every deck they have. If you agree there's a logical progression from staple to linear play, then you're agreeing about it being format warping. This is across play groups--several people on here and the two examples I've given are all different play groups who believe this is what would happen.

So now we're back to the part about testing the card to prove or disprove format warping--which, unfortunately, takes us nowhere because no one is willing to commit any personal time to doing it. If that's the case and you really want to play the card in EDH, then house unban it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:58 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
I'm not really up to date about the Modern format, but Gifts Ungiven was played it Modern at some point. Also, I believe Gifts Ungiven is still restricted in Vintage, the premier "broken deck" format. Both of these are pretty current markers for how Gifts is seen in the real world. No, obviously these are other formats with different rules and different metas, but it provides insight into various other players' opinions about the card without having to make them sit down to test a deck.


I'm fairly sure (not completely positive) that gifts is restricted in vintage for reasons that don't really apply to EDH. Pretty sure it involves black lotus pretty heavily, although I could be wrong. Also I think it was generally used for a lethal tendrils or something, which would be very difficult in EDH...but again, not positive.

Anyway it's obviously some difference between the legacy and the vintage banlist, because it's fully legal in legacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 12:11 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Segrus wrote:

Furthermore, my support for it being format warping is by providing evidence players would run the card in every deck they have. If you agree there's a logical progression from staple to linear play, then you're agreeing about it being format warping. This is across play groups--several people on here and the two examples I've given are all different play groups who believe this is what would happen.

So now we're back to the part about testing the card to prove or disprove format warping--which, unfortunately, takes us nowhere because no one is willing to commit any personal time to doing it. If that's the case and you really want to play the card in EDH, then house unban it.

I do not have to agree that it will warp the format because of your syllogism. There might be factors not factored in which would cause your logic to fail.

I also disagree with the implied definition of warping... Being included in every deck doesn't warp a format/meta. It changes it. Any card addition changes a format/meta. The term warp carries connotations of something undesired in this context.

But you're right, the card needs to be tested to prove its warp-iness, as I've said. I don't care enough to test... Too busy with partial differential equations to put in the time. That and I don't think it should be unbanned.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 12:13 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-14 4:18 pm
Age: Hatchling
At this point I kind of wish a RC member would chime in.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 12:27 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
For the sake of curiosity sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 1:05 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MiniDragon wrote:
At this point I kind of wish a RC member would chime in.

YOU SUMMONED, NOT ME?


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 9:08 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Himetic wrote:
I'm fairly sure (not completely positive) that gifts is restricted in vintage for reasons that don't really apply to EDH. Pretty sure it involves black lotus pretty heavily, although I could be wrong.

Nope, lotus had little to do with it. In fact, it's so strong of a card, that even after being restricted, still had a deck that was 1) named after and 2) would tutor up Gifts asap and use it to gain significant card advantage.

Also take into account that the power of it is incredibly strong in formats where people typically play 4-ofs of cards to ensure redundancy, which was a little bit of a drawback for the card in those formats: decrease it's efficiency, or decrease the efficiency of Gifts Ungiven. First off, the correct play was to play Gifts and decrease the efficiency of the deck, because Gifts is just that strong that it can make up for such a change in efficiency. Secondly, that 'drawback' doesn't exist in a singleton format.

Himetic wrote:
Anyway it's obviously some difference between the legacy and the vintage banlist, because it's fully legal in legacy.

The difference is the speed of the format. Vintage is much faster because of the moxes, while Legacy is slower and other decks can put sufficient pressure on decks that are trying to stall in order to cast Gifts. Commander, when not being populated by hyper-combo decks, is significantly slower than Legacy, and aggro isn't as popular. Thus increasing the relative power of Gifts Ungiven.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-07 11:37 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
It seems to me that a card that wasn't banned for reasons which are now the standard for bans deserves a look over.
I agree with this, but don't we think IF there was going to be some testing it would be on a card that has a legit shot at coming off and not a 4 card instant tutor for 4 mana?

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No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-08 10:39 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
MRHblue wrote:
niheloim wrote:
It seems to me that a card that wasn't banned for reasons which are now the standard for bans deserves a look over.
I agree with this, but don't we think IF there was going to be some testing it would be on a card that has a legit shot at coming off and not a 4 card instant tutor for 4 mana?

But testing a ridiculous card might be fun!

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-08 9:41 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Segrus wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Powerhouse cards? That's fine, maybe a little annoying. Cheap Insta-win combo... That's what we're worried about.

It begins with grabbing powerhouse cards and evolves into insta-win combos. It did when it was legal, and it would do it again now.

Also, annoying turns into frustration whenever the same combinations of cards turn up each game. Once that calms down, it's just boring.


I've seen it run two times, both by accident as the person missed and it recognized how good of a card it was at a simple glance. The first was a friend of mine who had it in...Kangee, bird tribal I think? We let him know, but asked him what he was going to grab just so he would understand. This was over a year ago, but the cards would have given him the win on the spot instead of his currently behind but somewhat locked up board-state.

The second time, was a similar situation with Rafiq, and the same thing happened, except it would have taken him two turns because he could only get one extra attack phase. To our table, it was easily worse than Three Dreams has ever been because he could cast them that turn.

These are just two incidents, granted, but they have been less than positive reinforcement for us.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-09 3:32 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
Furthermore, my support for it being format warping is by providing evidence players would run the card in every deck they have.

"Excuse me dear sir/madam. If *card* was taken off the banlist, would you play it?"
Them: "Well since cards are banned for being too good, YES!"


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