Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-22 6:58 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 153 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-29 4:48 pm 

Joined: 2009-Aug-11 3:10 pm
Age: Drake
paperwarrior wrote:
Intuition finds one card. Gifts finds an entire combo. That's an effect about as powerful as Time Stretch for less than half the cost.

Intuition ALSO finds a whole combo. Part of the point here is that each can set up no-win choices for opponents where it doesn't matter what goes to the graveyard.

I don't think Gifts needs to be banned. It's a beefcake of a spell that make waves on the table and enables all sorts of crazy plays without being particularly degenerate in and of itself. In my book, that's a good thing.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Azami, Lady of Scrolls ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~ Sharuum the Hegemon / Merieke Ri Berit ~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oona, Queen of the Fae / Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Kangee, Aerie Keeper


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-29 5:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jun-08 6:09 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Germany
no draw spell or tutor is degenerate in itself. you always need some kind of strong card to draw or fetch.

_________________
A witty saying proves nothing.
- Voltaire


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-29 6:25 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Quote:
It's a beefcake of a spell that make waves on the table and enables all sorts of crazy plays


It's a four mana instant that warps the game more than pretty much any spell that doesn't cost eight.

_________________
Current decks:
Oros, the Avenger (a little of everything)
Rhys the Redeemed (token legions)
Wort, Boggart Auntie (Goblin shenanigans)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-30 3:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Gnome wrote:
paperwarrior wrote:
Intuition finds one card. Gifts finds an entire combo. That's an effect about as powerful as Time Stretch for less than half the cost.

Intuition ALSO finds a whole combo. Part of the point here is that each can set up no-win choices for opponents where it doesn't matter what goes to the graveyard.

Enlighten me. What Intuition pile lets you go off immediately? Gifts has Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, Reveillark, and Karmic Guide, which lets you win immediately for 8 mana or less, along with who knows how many other instant win piles. The earlier example of Intuition for Time Stretch and two Regrowth effects is pretty much stictly worse than a straight-up tutor.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 10:44 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
paperwarrior wrote:
Gnome wrote:
paperwarrior wrote:
Intuition finds one card. Gifts finds an entire combo. That's an effect about as powerful as Time Stretch for less than half the cost.

Intuition ALSO finds a whole combo. Part of the point here is that each can set up no-win choices for opponents where it doesn't matter what goes to the graveyard.

Enlighten me. What Intuition pile lets you go off immediately? Gifts has Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, Reveillark, and Karmic Guide, which lets you win immediately for 8 mana or less, along with who knows how many other instant win piles. The earlier example of Intuition for Time Stretch and two Regrowth effects is pretty much stictly worse than a straight-up tutor.


I give you kiki + reveillark. Win with 8 mana please.

I'm really having a hard time thinking of any gifts piles that lets it win for less than the cost of tooth and nail. Even with combos like hermit druid + having a hermit druid deck, it's pretty inefficient compared to, say, demo tutor.

EDIT: And I know this is sort of a necro, but this is the thread linked to in the "Why is this banned" post.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 11:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Himetic wrote:
EDIT: And I know this is sort of a necro, but this is the thread linked to in the "Why is this banned" post.

So your argument is this: because other degenerate combos exist, allowing another, much more efficient tutor into the format is the correct solution? Note, Demonic Tutor gets only one of any card at sorcery speed, and Gifts Ungiven gets FOUR TIMES as many cards at instant speed without proportionally scaling in mana cost in a color considered the best color in EDH. Did I forget to mention it's at instant speed?

Please, just drop this. Gifts isn't getting unbanned.

I also don't know what "Why is this banned" thread you're talking about. Unless you misquoted the thread title, I couldn't find it in the first 2 pages of Rules Discussion forum.

_________________
Current:
Decklists are posted here. They can all be found in the Decklist Forum.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 11:44 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
Well firstly, here's the thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8121

I disagree that gifts is more broken than demonic. I doubt the format's fastest combo decks would even use gifts. This whole "it gets FOUR TIMES AS MANY CARDS" thing is baseless, imo, considering that the cards are split between hand and graveyard, and an opponent gets to do it. It's really hard to come up with a pile that's any kind of efficient and wins no matter what the split is. The only time it's better than tutoring 2 cards to hand - or even within the same ballpark as tutoring 2 cards to hand - is when you've got some sort of recursion engine going, which is generally a sort of incremental value thing and not the sort of thing that really needs banning (i.e. lftl, genesis).

If the complaint is "it enables combo decks!" then I want to see the combo it sets up more efficiently than tooth and nail or demonic tutor or survival. If the complaint is "it's too much value!" then I want to hear why it's worse than, say, necropotence or consecrated sphinx.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 11:57 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The simplest solution to this is for you to build where you think Gifts would be good. (Not broken, but pretty good.) Then play that deck. Then ask yourself "how could this deck get better?" And see how many iterations of that it takes before Gifts is the best card in the deck (to the point where you tutor for it with other tutors) and directly causes you to win basically every time it resolves.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 12:01 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
crokaycete wrote:
The simplest solution to this is for you to build where you think Gifts would be good. (Not broken, but pretty good.) Then play that deck. Then ask yourself "how could this deck get better?" And see how many iterations of that it takes before Gifts is the best card in the deck (to the point where you tutor for it with other tutors) and directly causes you to win basically every time it resolves.


Ok, first of all, you could apply that logic EASILY to tooth and nail, necropotence, hermit druid, etc. And I think you'd end up with a better deck.

Second of all, if you're curious, the first deck I'd be inserting it into (were it unbanned) would be a political phelddagrif deck, where I'd enable a lftl draw engine. Good? sure. Broken? no. Currently I use intuition for this purpose, and I have lots of tutors in there almost exclusively to tutor for it because it's a fairly unique effect. I don't see why that should be a bad thing. If it's late-game and I'm playing black, demonic tutoring for diabolic revelation seems like the smart thing to do, but that doesn't make it ban-worthy, nor does it make diabolic revelation better than demonic tutor.

Again, I'm still waiting for lftl piles that are actually broken. You tell me - what deck would you make to really abuse it?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 12:16 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Himetic wrote:
I disagree that gifts is more broken than demonic. I doubt the format's fastest combo decks would even use gifts.

The problem is, history has already proven you wrong on these points. So you can continue that stance all you like, but you'll stand there and be wrong while doing it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 12:24 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You are arguing for other cards to be banned, not for Gifts to be unbanned...

Also, let's start with some of the most basic piles that are undesirable:
Dread Return + Creature (+ Nothing)
Card + Card + Regrowth + Yawgmoth's Will
Any 4 cards with Flashback or Dredge

Basically, Gifts does the sort of bad stuff on its own at instant speed that you would normally need 2 sorceries (or one sorcery at twice the mana cost) to do. The fact that other boring multi-tutors (T&N, SotF) are not banned does justify the unbanning of another boring multi-tutor.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 1:00 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Himetic wrote:
I disagree that gifts is more broken than demonic. I doubt the format's fastest combo decks would even use gifts.

The problem is, history has already proven you wrong on these points. So you can continue that stance all you like, but you'll stand there and be wrong while doing it.


Saying "history showed you wrong" is not an argument. History supposedly showed kokusho was ban-worthy, and yet now that he's unbanned, has he been a problem? Not at any table I've sat down at, in fact I'd say he's not even particularly good outside of perhaps chainer decks. Gifts has been banned since right about the time I started playing the format, and lord knows the meta has changed substantially since then. The strength of the card 5 years ago is practically meaningless. The fastest combo decks have surely changed, and I doubt if hermit druid would be thrilled about a 4-mana tutor.

crokaycete wrote:
You are arguing for other cards to be banned, not for Gifts to be unbanned...

Also, let's start with some of the most basic piles that are undesirable:
Dread Return + Creature (+ Nothing)
Card + Card + Regrowth + Yawgmoth's Will
Any 4 cards with Flashback or Dredge

Basically, Gifts does the sort of bad stuff on its own at instant speed that you would normally need 2 sorceries (or one sorcery at twice the mana cost) to do. The fact that other boring multi-tutors (T&N, SotF) are not banned does justify the unbanning of another boring multi-tutor.


OK, now we're at least getting somewhere, since there's some actual specific combos in there.

I contest the real speed of the first pile. For one thing, they have to have 3 creatures on board by turn 3 and they have to lose ALL of them. Ouch. For a second thing, they can't return any of the eldrazi or BSC or similar threats. I'd say it's comparable to natural order, with less color restrictions and a lot more sacrificing, but no one thinks natural order is banworthy. Maybe if you're sitting at a mono-color table and drop iona? Really I'd say the better combo is with unburial rites, though.

the flashback/dredge pile is certainly fun, but I'd really want to see some specific targets that make it dangerous. I don't really see many flashback cards that really say "win the game" and most of them are pretty sub-par. Dredge-wise, lftl is really the only heavily playable dredge card in the format, and besides you get no actual CA for putting dredge cards in the grave. I'm not saying you can't get some serious value out of the card, but you can't even begin to compare it to necropotence in terms of CA for cost.

The regrowth/yawg will pile is probably the most dangerous, but it still tacks at least 7 mana onto whatever the actual combo is, 3 of which has to be the same turn. That's probably not going to go off much more quickly than tooth and nail can, unless you want to show me some combo I'm forgetting.

Personally I think it is (or at least can be) way more interesting than "boring" tutors like T&N. Sure, some people will use it for the same combo every time, but hermit druid is allowed to run free and be abused by those same people, and that hasn't ruined the format. I think most people are going to use it for interesting value engines, which imo shouldn't be a problem.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 1:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Himetic wrote:
Saying "history showed you wrong" is not an argument. History supposedly showed kokusho was ban-worthy, and yet now that he's unbanned, has he been a problem? Not at any table I've sat down at, in fact I'd say he's not even particularly good outside of perhaps chainer decks.

And you know what? People who were arguing for his unbanning would state how the metagame has changed over time, and that he's no longer the threat he once was.

Care to do that for Gifts? All you're saying so far is that you don't understand it. Which is fine, but you not understanding the reason a card is powerful isn't a reason to unban it. Instead, show how it is no longer as strong as it used to be.

Himetic wrote:
Gifts has been banned since right about the time I started playing the format, and lord knows the meta has changed substantially since then. The strength of the card 5 years ago is practically meaningless.

Yes, it has changed. Doesn't make the strength of the card 5 years ago meaningless. What you need to do is show how the metagame has changed in a way that the card is no longer as strong as it was 5 years ago.

Kokusho isn't that bad of an argument, as the strength of creatures has increased since it was initially banned (Titans & Eldrazi as forerunners of this.) Have tutors increased in power since then that Gifts is no longer as strong? I think you'll find that to be a much harder argument, especially as tutors generally just get stronger over time as there are more cards/combinations to tutor for.

Himetic wrote:
Personally I think it is (or at least can be) way more interesting than "boring" tutors like T&N.

And history has proven you to be (generally) wrong. Sure, some people may use it for interesting things, but typically those using Gifts used it to set up a win (or overwhelming position.) And Gifts was used to do it more than T&N is.

And instead of asking for proof of this, why not go back and just read this thread? Isn't that the whole point of the original thread that linked to this one? To help try to explain why the card was banned?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 1:41 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
I don't think Kokusho EVER needed to be banned, nor do I think the power of other creatures in the format is relevant to his banned status. No one running him efficiently is running him for his body. He might as well be a sorcery except for purposes of recurring. If tarmogoyf got banned, and then later wizards printed a whole lot of 5/5s for 2, then that would be indicate that tarmogoyf should be unbanned. But kokusho is barely a creature, I don't even see why other creatures would be relevant.

If we're assuming (which I would not) that kokusho was a genuine problem when he was banned, then it was because the format was less developed and competitive than it is now. And for that reason I think gifts might (and note that I say might, because I don't know for sure either) no longer be a problem. Most of the other cards that have been banned for so long interact badly with the format, whereas gifts doesn't really do that.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2014-Mar-05 2:13 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Koko wasn't banned for power level. It was banned for turning entire metas into the recur-the-life-drain-dragon game. Same for primeval and sylvan. That their effects were powerful certainly factored into why thy warped the game.

Gifts is banned not for its effect, but what that effect did to the game. Its a fine distinction, I readily admit that, but it does a good job dispelling silly comparisons between cards and power levels. Tooth and nail is almost exclusively a one card "I win", but it isn't currently warping the format into Elder Dragon Tooth'n'nail.

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 153 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 11  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: