Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Jul-20 6:58 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Case For Un-Baning Karakas
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-29 6:42 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
I’m firmly convinced that there is no longer any reason for Karakas to remain on the Banned list. Sheldon, you called for a well-thought out argument for this in order to take a deeper look, and I’m officially throwing my hat in the ring with this topic.

The case for Karakas being banned is a fairly obvious one. I understand how it originally got there. It has a potential to be very unbalancing and, due to the nature of the card type, very easy to find, deploy, and use. However, there are several reasons that I think this is no longer the case, and also several reasons that this card may have been unfairly judged to begin with.

Looking at the ability:

{T}: Return target legendary creature to its owner’s hand.

On the “Ban Me!â€


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-29 9:01 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jan-25 9:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Its like fighting over who gets the tolarian academy or academy ruins.... You each have acess to crucible and whoever doesn't give up first gets to keep it..... personaly i think Sharum is good enough without the ability to more cheaply recur broken artifacts....


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-29 9:31 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
The Legendary status of Karakas means that the unbanning of it just makes the unbanning of Crucible stupid and tedious to gameplay, so one of the two would have to go. Since the change to put Karakas out happened recently and Crucible back in even more recently, I hope it stays that way, given that both had reasonable justifications for their changes.

Furthermore, I used to play in a playgroup prior to the banning of Karakas when the rules were that "Generals had protection from Karakas", and
every white deck ran a KARAKAS instead of a plains in one slot because it was strictly better and some legend would show up in some large multiplayer game. I can remember tons of games where someone would say, "Oh, I Karakas your...blah" and someone waaaay at the other end of the table says, "Karakas? Dude I already have one out!" and the combat step gets screwed up in casual magic because on turn 14 in a big game they all look like plains from across the table and you're not playing REL 3 and you're not sure how to handle the damage or when to bury them both.

Karakas stands kinda head and shoulders above Urborg, Hammerheim and the (practically) useless Tolaria cycle, and is in most cases better than the Kamigawa legendary mono-lands. And that's when they don't affect generals.

_________________
Growing Darkness, taking Dawn; I was me, but now he is gone - Metallica, "Fade to Black"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 3:32 am 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
DJ

Thanks for the well-reasoned argument. I'll make sure the rest of the RC looks at it.

Sheldon

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 4:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
Thanks very much, Sheldon. I really appreciate it.

--->DJ


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 8:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Jan-01 3:15 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Germany, Bavaria, Ingolstadt
I have personally no problem with abusing Karakas with Generals that have Cip abilities, but one point that troubles me about Karakas is, that it weakens aggro strategies. Lets face it, aggro is not one of the best Plans in EDH, the meta is already dominated by Combo and Conrtol decks I dont think that there is no need to give them a second maze of ith that produces mana.

_________________
* Unaligned Onisu of Ninjutsu * Lizard of Hatred * Doom of the Naga *
First Strike, Beer Haste


This post is brought to you by the elders of the internet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Case For Un-Baning Karakas
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 10:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
DJ Catchem wrote:
On the other side of the coin, though, things get interesting. Starting with the low-hanging fruit in the drawback department:

1. Legendary status. Anyone in white will be running a tailor-made Strip Mine for it…not to mention things like Vesuva.
2. Land status. Strip effects are all over the place anyway, and are available to every deck.
3. It’s white. The other side (in contrast to the above drawback) to this coin is that white seems to be under-represented in EDH, meaning that this won’t be everywhere. It could also prove to be a boost to the color, encouraging more people to try the color.

I don't agree with any of these reasons.
1, you seem to be saying that everyone playing white will play one of these. That doesn't sound like a reason to unban it at all.
2, it's a land so it dies to effects that destroy lands. Well, yeah. Yawgmoth's Bargain is an enchantment so it dies to things that destroy enchantments. Kokusho is a creature so it dies to things that exile creatures. Just because the answers are plentiful doesn't mean it will be fine.
3, white is not a significantly underplayed color. WUB and GWU Generals are plentiful and popular (Rafiq, Sharuum, Zur), Teneb is the #1 most commonly played General listed on these forums, Gaddock Teeg, Mayael, and Uril all have a fair following.

All that said, I'm not certain Karakas needs to remain banned. It seems obnoxious at best, but at least in multiplayer it can only do so much.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 1:42 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
I'm torn. I think Karakas would be a good way to level the playing field against certain Generals.

The problem I see is the splash damage. In one game you're shutting down Roffy early on and in the next you're stopping Rith from ever swinging.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 1:51 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Perhaps we'll eventually get R&D to make a Karakas substitute that references non-General Legendary creatures :)

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 2:13 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
1, you seem to be saying that everyone playing white will play one of these. That doesn't sound like a reason to unban it at all.


Everyone playing a deck should be running crucible of worlds, and pretty much does, but it was unbanned. so i dont think it being playable in every possible deck is a reason for it stay banned.... Sensei's Divining Top, Sol Ring, Darksteel Ingot, Maze of Ith, Coalition Relic, Tormods Crypt, and Scroll Rack are played in almost every deck, and none of those are color specific. Darksteel Colossus and Sundering Titan are also played in a very large % or decks, also, not color specific.

karakas would be tons of fun in Sharuum..

and white is VERY well represented thanks to its mass kill and targeted RFG skills.

_________________
...banned lists are for pussies


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 2:23 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
I've got to disagree--Karakas warps games too much.

Karakas is a multi-faceted card. It has many uses, some of which may not be overpowered, but the ability to completely shut down most opposing generals is far too strong.

Quote:
Karakas is a free, un-counter-able way to deal with any general that doesn’t have a shroud ability or effect (or protection from lands…?)


So let me get this straight...you're saying that I have to be playing with Uril, Multani, Kodama of the North Tree, or Autumn Willow in order to be safe from Karakas? Considering the Uril is the only one of those that sees any play, Karakas stomps on the whole format.

Quote:
As well, if your general is shrouded properly, you can ignore Karakas altogether. Stronger yet, this is a convincing tool to help answer what could be problematic generals that hit early and can unbalance things quickly (Rofellos), or that have the capacity to simply end games faster than most players can set things up (Rafiq).


Rafiq is not too fast. Rofellos may be, but there are plenty of ways to slow that deck down--any removal does the job. Karakas does more than slow a general down--it shuts it down. Imagine playing against Rofellos and dropping a turn 1 Karakas. Unless something strange happens, Rofellos will very likely not be able to be used once that game--Karakas just completely neuters him, the fastest general in the format. It neuters any other general (except Uril) just as efficiently.

I don't know what you mean by "shrouded properly." Most forms of shroud can be avoided by just Karakas-ing the general in response. Furthermore, many decks don't want to shroud their generals--they'd rather equip them, use combat tricks, or whatever else. Are you saying Shroud should be in every deck?

Quote:
The hand is not a bad place to have your general placed, in the realm of things that can happen to your general. Anyone using this against you as a defensive effect will be helping you circumvent the 2-mana-per-exile surcharge you’d be accruing otherwise.


This is silly. The hand is a bad place for your general to be, if you can never make it stick around long enough to attack or do anything useful. You're talking like Karakas-ing an opponent's general gives them an advantage--it doesn't, unless that general is Sharuum. They're not circumventing a 2-mana-per-exile surcharge, because their general probably wouldn't have died otherwise, if you didn't have Karakas. They still have to pay however much their general costs to replay it, where as you're spending essentially 1 mana a turn to shut that general down indefinitely.

Quote:
All of these reasons add up. What finally became the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back for me, however, was the M10 rule changes. Let’s face it – Karakas, in conjunction with the combat stack, proves to be a fantastic way to create the ultimate blocker. If your general happens to have any power at all, you have renewable removal when you can stack damage. On offense, Karakas is a parachute to protect your general from any ill effects. Removing the ability to stack damage and activate Karakas in response is a large hit to the potential power of the card.


This is silly too. Yes, M10 rules make Karakas slightly worse, but it's not a big deal at all. M10 rules don't change combat that much even in standard, which is full of aggro. You're talking about blocking...and honestly, no one blocks in EDH. This is especially true in multiplayer, where you can always just attack the guy without blockers. Everything that needs to get through has evasion anyways.

Quote:
1. Legendary status. Anyone in white will be running a tailor-made Strip Mine for it…not to mention things like Vesuva.
2. Land status. Strip effects are all over the place anyway, and are available to every deck.
3. It’s white. The other side (in contrast to the above drawback) to this coin is that white seems to be under-represented in EDH, meaning that this won’t be everywhere. It could also prove to be a boost to the color, encouraging more people to try the color.


Silly. Allow me to dissect your arguments.
1. So you're saying Karakas will be weak...because everyone will be running Karakas? Riiight. Vesuva sees little play currently. It might see more play with Karakas around, but that's not necessarily a good thing.
2. Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Dust Bowl. The first two are in most decks already, the last two aren't strong enough for most decks. Yes, these effects are available to any deck, but do you want to force every deck to play them? Because unbanning Karakas will do that.
3. Really? White is doing absolutely fine in EDH. It's certainly more represented than Red and Green. White's representation is pretty much perfect.

Quote:
It ends up being strongest when fueling CIP recursion; interestingly enough, it doesn’t draw a ton of hate until it provides a hurdle for general damage, at which point it ends up being about as strong as Maze Of Ith or Kor Haven in practice.


No...it's not strongest when fueling CIP recursion. It's strongest when it's COMPLETELY LOCKING A GENERAL OUT OF THE GAME. It doesn't just shut down general damage, it shuts down generals. Let's see your Maze of Ith do anything vs. Rofellos or Azami. As has already been pointed out, Karakas doesn't specifically hate out the fast, mean generals either--it's even better against fun generals like Nicol Bolas than against Rofellos.

Unbanning Karakas would be a very bad move for the health of EDH. It would further homogenize the format, and it's not even a fun card. If you unban Karakas, this is what happens: every single white deck cuts a Plains for Karakas, and every single deck has to include at least Strip Mine and Wasteland, as well as probably some combination of Vesuva, Dust Bowl, and Ghost Quarter. Probably Crucible of Worlds along with those. Is that healthy? It's not. There's no choice whatsoever about playing Karakas--it's always worth including, because it's always amazing. Forcing every deck to play additional land destruction or risk losing to Karakas is no good either.

People like playing EDH because it's fun to play generals. That's what distinguishes EDH from all other formats. Karakas, in addition to its other uses, stops people from playing generals. That is both overpowered and unfun. Karakas DOES crack the game open.

I'm sorry DJ Catchem, but I also have a tough time taking your suggestion seriously, because I know that your main deck is Sharuum (it's my main deck too), and there is no deck that would benefit more from the unbanning of Karakas than Sharuum. Not only do you get all the benefits of it everyone else does, but you can use it as a recursion engine AND you're one of the only decks that is essentially immune to opposing Karakas. Unbanning Karakas would be an insanely strong boost for your deck. You lobbying for its unbanning seems quite self-serving.

Truly, I can think of no card on the banned list that deserves to be on there more than Karakas. Nothing else on there would warp the format so badly.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 3:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
If, for example, you know that Karakas is in every deck in your playgroup are you going to want to build a deck around any of the combat-based Legendary Dragons?

Or are you just going to pick a random 5C General and play 99 card singleton?

That's a lot of splash damage to the format itself, if it gets to that point.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 3:23 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
Quote:
If, for example, you know that Karakas is in every deck in your playgroup are you going to want to build a deck around any of the combat-based Legendary Dragons?

Or are you just going to pick a random 5C General and play 99 card singleton?

That's a lot of splash damage to the format itself, if it gets to that point.


Exactly. The presence of Karakas intensely weakens decks that actually want to or need to utilize their general, which goes against the whole point of EDH.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 4:05 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
it seems that the only problem that Karakas really creates is in regards to its effect on generals..... so why not just use the original erata that was applied to it before it was just outright banned? i know this has been addressed before in other threads, erata being undesirable because "its confusing" ...well, its not. wizards has been changing the text of cards for years and everyone seems to keep up without too many problems. theres only like 20 cards on the banned list, and im pretty sure that most, if not all, EDH players know what those cards are. so i highly doubt that applying some erata text to ONE card will be very confusing at all.

i would love for it to be legal and without any change to its literal functionality, but i can see how it could get a bit out of hand if you could target generals. at the same time tho, i find it rather appropriate for handling certain generals, namely Rofellos.

Quote:
Imagine playing against Rofellos and dropping a turn 1 Karakas. Unless something strange happens, Rofellos will very likely not be able to be used once that game--Karakas just completely neuters him, the fastest general in the format. It neuters any other general (except Uril) just as efficiently.


youre right here, it would shut rofellos down... but im not too disturbed by that idea. Rofellos needs to be shut down because he gets WAY out of hand, and fast. if rofellos is not dealt with every single turn he gets out of hand. there is not enough viable removal to combat the acceleration and resilience of Rofellos as it is (aside from throwing down land-d soon and often).. so whats so wrong with legalizing such a good anti Rofellos card? as far as im concerned, being able to defensively bounce a general is in many cases a good reason for Karakas to be legal. if what is arguably the most broken general in the format, Rofellos, is legal then maybe other cards which are excessively broken in this format should be legal too.

Rofellos is broken because of how it functions in this format as a general, and Karakas broken because of how it can interact and manipulate the structure of the format and the functionality of the general through its impact specifically with generals... but one is legal and the other not. extremely broken card A is ok, but relatively broken card B is not..... which inevitably leads me back to wondering why metal worker is banned...but that i guess is for another thread.

_________________
...banned lists are for pussies


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-30 5:46 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
Quote:
it seems that the only problem that Karakas really creates is in regards to its effect on generals..... so why not just use the original erata that was applied to it before it was just outright banned? i know this has been addressed before in other threads, erata being undesirable because "its confusing" ...well, its not. wizards has been changing the text of cards for years and everyone seems to keep up without too many problems. theres only like 20 cards on the banned list, and im pretty sure that most, if not all, EDH players know what those cards are. so i highly doubt that applying some erata text to ONE card will be very confusing at all.


The powers that be have decided that there will no longer be any EDH-specific errata. That's a perfectly reasonable decision. Karakas would be fine with errata, but it's too good without it. I'd rather have this one card banned then mess with the rules of the format. Karakas-with-errata isn't cool enough to be worth changing the rules for.

Quote:
youre right here, it would shut rofellos down... but im not too disturbed by that idea. Rofellos needs to be shut down because he gets WAY out of hand, and fast.


You're totally misunderstanding my point. I was not trying to say that Karakas is a Rofellos hoser--a Rofellos hoser would be fine. I'm trying to say that it's a GENERAL hoser, and that's not fine. Rofellos was chosen for my example because it's the fastest general in the formet. The point is that if Karakas can shut down Rofellos, Karakas can shut down ANY general, barring corner cases Uril and Sharuum. That's far too much power for a simple land.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 36 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: