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 Post subject: Protean Hulk Thoughts.
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-23 4:39 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 5:31 pm
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I'm sure this topic, hidden amongst all the "BAN THIS!" and "BAN THAT!", could be found in the Rules Forum. However I've been thinking, and I know Protean Hulk can be broken, but is it truly broken enough to be on the banned list? It seems so flavorful as an EDH card. I'm hoping we can get a discussion going on this card.


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AgePosted: 2009-Jun-23 4:44 pm 
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http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=490

There's the discussion, please read up if you want to continue discussion. Beating a dead horse if you ask me, yes yes Hulk is broken 1 blue 1 colorless wins are stupid and even if it's turn 4 instant win 1 card stupid.

Here's Geno's old post from that thread so you don't have to search the whole thing. His ideal playgroup probably doesn't need to have any cards banned, fyi. The banning still occurred even though there was a 53% to 47% majority for keeping them unbanned, and now EDH has one less easy infinite to deal with.

Genomancer wrote:
AJ wrote:
The banned list should be reserved for unfair game ending effects....not "unfun" cards.


That's where the majority of EDH players and rules folks disagree with you. The banned list is not intended to 'control' EDH games... it's purpose is to *communicate* information; information which is helpful the community at large.

Many cards are on the banned list because their problematic nature is NOT obvious upon first inspection. If a card is obviously broken then players will have no difficulty controlling it themselves. As a result, EDH is well served by a list of "cards you may not realize will take more away from your game than they add". This is a fundamental premise of the banned list... to help players more quickly identify things which detract from EDH-style play.

Like many formats, one of the great facets of EDH is trying to "create" or "discover" a winning deck, or strategy. Unlike other formats, identifying the best deck from a list of options is NOT considered a relevant skill. Nobody cares. The format is structured to reward interesting play, not winning. So while it's certainly impressive for someone to build a well tuned Hulk combo deck... playing it continually once they've demonstrated the fact misses the point entirely. Players are required to demonstrate the maturity to figure this out, and move on to something more interesting, like finding a different "solution", or successfully executing a non-trivial solution.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I can only suggest more time reflecting on it... because it isn't going to go away. EDH is a format driven by different principles than things like Vintage or Standard... and trying to apply their thinking to EDH games, communities, and rules will only end in frustration. If your playgroup disagrees with cards on the list, or not on the list, you are free to change them collectively (or unilaterally, if you are in control of the situation). Or, as previously suggested, play Vintage Highlander or some other game.

In other words: Don't expect us to make our sandbox idiot-proof for you at our expense; there's an easier solution.

G


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-24 2:06 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
In other words: Don't expect us to make our sandbox idiot-proof for you at our expense; there's an easier solution.


isnt the banning of cards essentially a process of making the "sandbox idiot proof" for players who do not or refuse to recognize the presence of a meta game??

maturity? ok, so players are expected to be mature and self ban, thats fine, but isnt having a ban list going against this belief that mature players will be self banning? isnt having a banned list basically the same as saying that most players are immature (which is truth) and need to be restricted or else they will act out of line??

and thinking that a list called "The Ban List" is going to be interpreted as a list of sugestions is just foolish. its called a "banned list" so people are going to just assume that these cards are banned no matter what and will almost never see it as a list of suggestions. why dont you just call it the "watch out for this crazy shit list" ....banned list does not equal list of cards suggested to be banned on a local level. label lists correctly please and/or stop contradicting yourselves.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jun-24 4:08 pm 
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If people were perfect jerks or perfectly civilized, then we wouldn't need a banned list... but they aren't. They're somewhere between the two which is why it's not an "absolutes" kind of problem. Recommendations and guidance are appropriate. If people are complete dicks and want to ignore it... no problem. If they live in a world of rainbows and puppies, they don't need it. Most other people start playing and go through a process of determining what they are/aren't willing to play against... as a way to speed up that process, the "suggested" banned list has proven itself very useful for most people.

And that's what it is labeled... a recommended/suggested list of cards people should refuse to play with/against in their games. It's there to help you, not to save you. If that's not what you need, tough luck.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-24 6:05 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
If people are complete dicks and want to ignore it... no problem.


so are you saying that those who choose to ignore the proposed banned list are dicks? thats a little harsh, and pretty ignorant. i ignore it because i value every card printed by wizards and believe that the game is incomplete if you are forbidden from playing with certain cards. i dont see it as me being a dick, just an appreciator of the game as it was designed (on a card by card basis) to be played. thats not dickish, maybe purist, but not dickish.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-24 6:27 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
draaaak wrote:
Quote:
If people are complete dicks and want to ignore it... no problem.


so are you saying that those who choose to ignore the proposed banned list are dicks? thats a little harsh, and pretty ignorant. i ignore it because i value every card printed by wizards and believe that the game is incomplete if you are forbidden from playing with certain cards. i dont see it as me being a dick, just an appreciator of the game as it was designed (on a card by card basis) to be played. thats not dickish, maybe purist, but not dickish.


I'd be inclined to agree with you if Wizards hadn't apologized for printing certain cards over the years, but there are multiple cards that they've printed that never should have seen the light of day. Thankfully, due to the multiplayer nature of this format, a good chunk of them end up being counterbalanced by having more than one person trying to kill you for playing them.

The ones that aren't sufficiently balanced by that method are on the banned list. Protean Hulk got the axe over Flash because in EDH it's completely possible to combo out with the Hulk without Flash. In Vintage and Legacy, banning Flash is more than enough to stop Hulk combo because the format's so much faster.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-24 9:06 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
draaaak wrote:
Quote:
If people are complete dicks and want to ignore it... no problem.


so are you saying that those who choose to ignore the proposed banned list are dicks? thats a little harsh, and pretty ignorant. i ignore it because i value every card printed by wizards and believe that the game is incomplete if you are forbidden from playing with certain cards. i dont see it as me being a dick, just an appreciator of the game as it was designed (on a card by card basis) to be played. thats not dickish, maybe purist, but not dickish.



Not every card is meant to be played in every format. Hence we have Standard, which disallows most of the cards ever printed. Or Legacy, which bans many cards even though it's an Eternal format.

Formats are defined by their restrictions, even Vintage.
So you can go be a purist in whatever type of player created format you want, but it doesn't work that way in this format.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-24 11:18 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-03 9:28 am
Age: Drake
I personally would like a discussion on Protean Hulk. Sure, it's an awesome card, but I don't see anything more 'degenerate' than what someone can do with Chord of Calling or Tooth and Nail. Definitely no Kukusho. I've never seen these flash decks or be missing the issue.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 6:24 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The Nihilist wrote:
I personally would like a discussion on Protean Hulk. Sure, it's an awesome card, but I don't see anything more 'degenerate' than what someone can do with Chord of Calling or Tooth and Nail. Definitely no Kukusho. I've never seen these flash decks or be missing the issue.


1. Protean Hulk dies, fetch Body Double (copying Protean Hulk) and Carrion Feeder.
2. Sac Body Double to Carrion Feeder, fetch Reveillark and Mogg Fanatic.
3. Sac Reveillark to Carrion Feeder, sac Mogg Fanatic for 1 damage to an opponent, return Body Double (copying Reveillark) and Mogg Fanatic.
4. Repeat step 3 replacing Reveillark with the Body Double copying it until everyone is dead.

I suppose you could argue that Body Double is the real problem card, considering it's the card that broke Protean Hulk, but Protean Hulk is pretty retarded anyway because it fetches multiple creatures and puts them directly into play. It's functionally similar to Tinker - you get 6 CMC worth of guys for 7 mana, but you get to tutor for 6 CMC worth of guys for effectively 1 extra mana.

Can you imagine playing a Natural Order off saccing a Protean Hulk? So ridiculously awesome...

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 7:47 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
the issue with flash is that you can play it turn 1 fairly easily , then drop a hulk, let it sac and win.

Anyway when it was legal I used to abuse the snot out of it with grave recursion.

imagine , hells caretaker + intuder alert + protean hulk .. oops are all the creatures in my deck in play ..


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 9:00 am 
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Protean Hulk costs two less than T&N, and is a creature so it's infi easier to tutor for in green. It's FAR better than Chord of Calling... which would cost 9 to get the same CMC and can only get one creature. The strength of the Hulk is that it can get multiple creatures.

And it's not just Body Double. Karmic Guide, and a number of other interesting EDH creatures also break Hulk. I was sad to see hm go (and still play him in one non-combo sliver deck that my playgroup has said is ok)... but he's just too hard not to break.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 9:25 am 
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draaaak wrote:
Quote:
If people are complete dicks and want to ignore it... no problem.


so are you saying that those who choose to ignore the proposed banned list are dicks? thats a little harsh, and pretty ignorant. i ignore it because i value every card printed by wizards and believe that the game is incomplete if you are forbidden from playing with certain cards. i dont see it as me being a dick, just an appreciator of the game as it was designed (on a card by card basis) to be played. thats not dickish, maybe purist, but not dickish.


Okay, you are a purist to the format of Vintage, of Type 1, of infinite brokenness and that is OK. Nobody here wants to insult another format or really say anything's wrong with the format that you play. It's highly respected, and heck I'd play you for a mox any day of the week with a deck constructed in the format of Vintage. It's my favorite format, so NOBODY in their right mind BETTER INSULT VINTAGE. I will defend it with every breath I have, because the format is amazing.

HOWEVER

This is not Vintage. These are the EDH forums and the rules we're discussing are for playing EDH, a casual multiplayer format designed to relieve people of the stresses of formats like Standard and Vintage and to provide a home for decks that WILL BE DESIGNED TO BE SUB-OPTIMAL. This format is the first home for those decks, and in terms of Wizards it is the ONLY home for those decks. The format has a hard time translating to the tournament and competitive scene because the rules aren't meant for that...but the rules are meant for something. If you run an EDH tournament in any fashion, you will need to run the tournament with an additional set of rules or you will fail. We knows this, we've seen it happen. But if you are playing casually with friends you should try to respect the rules and the INTENT of the rules. The rules can either describe the format and be used to build a deck for the format, or they can describe restrictions on Vintage and be used to construct an extraordinarily nerfed Vintage Commander Highlander deck.

The problem with Vintage Commander Highlander is that it's swingy, luck-based and the focus is entirely on going infinite and combo-ing out as fast as possible. You're competitive, highly intelligent, and every decision made is black and white, good or bad, right or wrong according to board position and your read of the players. EDH is like the Bizarro world of Vintage Commander Highlander, designed to promote precisely the opposite type of play. When people are screwing around, they don't go infinite as fast as possible, and their decisions are certainly not the easy peasy black and white that you'd do in VCH.

If you think you can get a solid following for VCH I suggest you start defining the format and see how popular you can make it. It is a format, and nobody is denying it. The thing is, it's not EDH it's way too competitive and sure you don't need a banned list but you also don't need more than 20 minutes for any game ever and you won't see but 1/1000th of the plays that EDH will provide. You'll see hulk flash versus salvagers led versus tezz vault versus . . . but those matchups aren't part of EDH, those are vintage combos that we want people to realize aren't the intent of the format. Now we can't take all the combos out and we won't even try to, but we can send a message about our format with the absence of LED, of Hulk, and of Time Vault. The message is that we don't like them, we think winning with those cards is game-ruining and format-ruining and the format is healthier without their presence. They detract from our gameplay because there isn't a way to preserve our "way of play" with their presence. When someone is blowing someone away with super-cool super-subpar cards and someone else goes "I'll play Auriok Salvagers, oh man look LED is in my GY now I get infinite mana draw my deck and win" that's like...wow...okay you played the I WIN card...@#%&^ you dude you just shat on my cool ass game. That ruins the format, it ruins the decks people construct and it certainly wastes players' time and creativity.

Now, on to your question, are you a dick for ignoring the banned list? To EDH players and casual players? No, but you aren't playing with us you are ignoring US. Ignoring someone isn't being a dick to them, but it's certainly not playing with them. Nobody here wants to play against one of your decks with an EDH deck, but given some time you'll find some people who will play you VCH and probably some who will like it. But I won't be one of those people, I reserve those sorts of games for where I play 4xFOW 4xDrain 8xDuress in my deck. I don't play suicide/infinite combo or play against suicide/infinite combo in EDH. When I find out that I was doing that, I scoop up my cards and find some different people to play my casual EDH with, because the format you play isn't casual to me or many of the players of EDH.


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AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 10:01 am 
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dra*k wrote:
so are you saying that those who choose to ignore the proposed banned list are dicks?


On the contrary. I'm saying the banned list is only a problem if people behave like a dick... in which case they may as well ignore it or make up their own.

If, on the other hand, players are somewhat civilized... the banned list gets them the rest of the way. It's not meant for a world of absolutes... it's meant for the real world where people are willing to try, but aren't perfect saints.

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Last edited by Genomancer on 2009-Jun-25 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 11:07 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Geno, that's draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak's quote, not mine.


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AgePosted: 2009-Jun-25 11:21 am 
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Whoops,sorry.... fixed

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