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 Post subject: Rofellos + Staff of Domination ...uhhh, really??
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 4:04 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
The following is a question I am posing to the "Rules Committee"

Why are the one card combos seen in Rofellos decks (Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle, Mishra's Helix) and Niv Mizzet decks (Curiosity, Ophidian eye) less degenerate and more acceptable within this EDH community than decks that use multi-card combos? It doesnt really make sense. How on earth can playing one card in addition to your general, which you always have access to, for the win be considered not degenerate?

This sort of setup is clearly far more powerful that multi-card combos that must be searched out and pieced together with the hopes that nothing will cause crippling disruption. I mean, isnt this a big part of why Rofellos was banned in the first place? It really doesnt make any sense.

Guideline #1 for why a card should be banned states:
Quote:
#1: A card's power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly in excess of both it's mana cost AND power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]


So, how is Rofellos legal again? This still doesnt make any damn sense at all. And yall can try to rationalize it all you want, but when it comes down to it, Rofellos is so overpowered BECAUSE OF HOW THIS FORMAT IS STRUCTURED. I mean, if Rofellos is legal, then over half the ban list should be legal too.

I am not saying that Rofellos or Niv Mizzet should be banned (i love efficient combos) i just think that his unbanning goes against the banning guidelines and therefore shouldnt have happened in the first place. Ive seen people on the "Rules Committee" hate on Niv Mizzet decks for be one card combo decks, but then these same people go and legalize Rofellos? How the hell can there be such an obvious double standard at play here. Whats the deal people?

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 4:12 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Rofellos can be killed in response to the staff being played. You also can't kill someone with Staff of Domination - you need a third card. You can gain an arbitrary amount of life, but that doesn't stop general damage.

Biorhythm MUST be countered if you have no creatures in play. Same thing goes for Coalition Victory. Niv-Mizzet just has to turn sideways with either Curiosity or Ophidian Eye attached to him to kill at least one player, possibly 2, and more if you have a way to put cards from your hand back into your library.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 4:23 pm 
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You'll also draw an arbitrary number of cards with Staff of Domination, and make infinite mana, so you'll probably end up getting there.

Anyway, Rofellos combo is weaker than, say, Reveillark combo or Power Artifact, because you're forced to play mono-green. Your ability to tutor is limited to Skyship Weatherlight and Planar Portal, your card advantage engines are seriously sub par and your ability to protect your strategy and yourself could accurately be described as non-existant.

It's literally easier to put together a three card combo in a WUB deck than win with Staff of Domination + Rofellos.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 4:24 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
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Okay I fail at remembering the last ability, fine, but I second your points even if you did make me look dumb. :P

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 4:45 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
yeah, you draw your deck, play concordant crossroads, play every creature in your deck and swing, or you just hurricane the table for 40. and of course he can be killed...hes a creature, but that didnt stop Metal Worker from being banned despite that he can be killed by twice as many removal spells in a broader range of colors. it is this sort of thing that defines a double standard.

while it is relatively rare to draw into staff of domination before turn 5 the odds are still high enough that with a top or scroll rack or mirri's guile or sylvan library in play and sufficient shuffle effects thru land search spells that staff will show up by then.

and lets not forget once staff hits the table, the only way to stop this from going off are cards with split second... and there are how many here that apply? 4.5 (.5=word of seizing cuz its a not a real fix)? ...hmmmm

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 4:47 pm 
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cool.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 5:06 pm 
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Let's not forget redundancy. Staff of Domination isn't the only easy one-card combo with Rofellos. Umbral Mantle and Sword of the Paruns are also one-card infinite mana generators. Think of it this way: if Mox Lotus cost three mana, would you ban it? That's pretty much what we're talking about here: a one-card infinite mana generator.

I agree with the premise of the thread. Isn't it a little silly that Coalition Victory is banned and Rofellos is legal?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 5:33 pm 
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I have a Rofello's deck and I do play in Draaaak's play group. What I have noticed with my is not a win on turn 3-5 because of immediate degeneracy, but rather a solid ramp into usually nothing or a creature. Probably the most scary of these creatures is Multani, but he can be dealt with by a wraith effect or what not. Also I can think of other decks that drop fatties turn 3-4 using reanimation or sneak attack effects. This is my point Rofello's accelerates really fast, but once you drop your hand size I generally play the rest of the game with about 2 -3 cards max in my hand. There are not to many direct draw effects with green besides Harmonize and the rest are sifters. If have crafted an initiative way to use creature tokens to draw through my deck, but they usually die to wrath effects. You can also use mana search and like Draaaak said some sort of sylvan library effect to shuffle through the bad cards and find your combo pieces, but that is not a demonic tutor or a gifts ungiven. It is simply not a direct search.

All those crazy BWU which people are afraid of are scary because they are totally hidden. This meaning there tutors and most of there draw are instants or sorceries. This means the only way to stop them is to counter and hope for the best or prey that you have the correct piece of removal when player x drops his combo piece. When I play my mono green deck all my draw effects or tutors are permanents which means there are a whole slew of ways to respond to my threat. You see it, you perceive it, then you respond to it. I have no way to counter your wrath effects besides let x card die and hope i draw into a witness and play x card again. Does Roffellos have instant 1 card drop wins? Yes it does. Can it be searched for efficiently so that it would be considered "degenerate" and every single game would end up with the same win condition? No I do not think so.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 5:46 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
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you seem have missed my point entirely. this is not intended to be a discussion of whether or not Rofellos as a general is overpowered or combolicious... this has been discussed at great length in other threads..and we all know he has huge potential to be OP. the point of my post is to raise a concern about the double standards at play in the banned list using Rofellos as the prime example of this....because it is in violation of guideline #1 in more obvious ways than other cards on the list.

oncita, stop downplaying your deck already... what is your win percentage? 80? 85? higher? also, you dont run umbral mantle or sword of the paruns despite my constant nagging....

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos + Staff of Domination ...uhhh, really??
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 5:48 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
draaaak wrote:
So, how is Rofellos legal again?


Easy - this is a predominantly casual format, and Rofellos has lots of fun casual uses that don't involve going infinite as soon as possible.

What does banning Rofellos get us? The people who feel the need to go all Spike on their playgroup will simply find another form of degeneracy, and the people who wanted to use him to make fun and wacky decks wouldn't be able to do so. Sounds like a loss to me.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 5:51 pm 
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draaaak wrote:
the point of my post is to raise a concern about the double standards at play


the rules admins are racist and bigoted as fuck

ELF POWER

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 6:02 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
papa_funk:

ok, then why is coalition victory banned when test of endurance is not but easier to pull off?

why is protean hulk banned? because of flash? but it can be used for so many other less broken purposes? i want to use it without flash, but its banned, so i guess i cant have fun with it.

karakas is not that overpowered, especially with erata text... i would use it to recur things like venser or other creatures that I control...which would be fun

Metal worker only works when your hand is full and does not win you the game, but accel you...until you run out of hand/mana.. and usually less so than rofellos.

tinker does not win you the game.

Library of Alexandria is so far from broken or overpowered... its flavorful and fun.

worldgorger dragon is powerful sure, but it takes a pretty convoluted combo to pull him off for the win... and he would be so cool in so many non game winning situations....ie fun ones...because winning apparently isnt fun.

balance...omgwtf, this card shouldnt be banned. yes combos can be had that semi cripple your opponents, but you know what? thats part of the game.


once again, im not calling for it to be banned, i never would. have you read my sig? so, make sense please.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 6:37 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
draaaak wrote:
once again, im not calling for it to be banned, i never would. have you read my sig? so, make sense please.


Drat, you got us.

Once a month, we get together in our secret underground layer, and try to figure out what changes would irk draaaak the most.

Then, we have coffee.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 8:13 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Rofellos combo is weaker than ________


You finished your sentence wrong, the correct answer was NOTHING.

Anyway that is the sentiment of MY playgroup, where Rofellos? Oh he's banned. Survival? Multani? Staff? Mantle? Yeah...each of those are 1 card combos with Rofellos. There are too many to count, and I couldn't figure out how to make a non-broken deck. Maybe all uncommons? Shit...I haven't tried that...

Edit: We only banned Rofellos as a general, not the concept of the combo. Just the execution of it over and over starting on turn 2. :-)


Last edited by warble on 2009-Jun-03 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Jun-03 9:06 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
meh I'd rathe face rof than zur every day of the week.

he wasn't banned other than as a general


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