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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 3:46 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Sigarda, Host of Herons and Tajuru Preserver both predate new Tamiyo by almost a decade, and both are far better at stopping a Braids lock. Tamiyo is utterly irrelevant to whether or not Braids should be banned or not.

Came here to say this as well. Sigarda and Tajuru Preserver are better at the "can't sacrifice stuff" bit than Tamiyo is, and yet Braids is still banned because they're not good enough.

If you can convince your local playgroup to allow Braids, more power to you. But she's on the ban list for excellent reasons, and Tamiyo (with the other two) is still not a good enough pool of cards to let her back in the format again.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-20 1:35 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RonB wrote:
I get defensive when people come at me with no provocation. ... I have demands on re evaluation... But this doesnt mean old established members should insult and attack new members for having a different viewpoint.
It is hilarious people come here making demands, and taking up discussions that have been had tons of time, but complain thet get 'attacked for no reason', when they clearly made zero search efforts.

Quote:
Nah , sounds like you just dont like controlling prison style decks.
We agree on one thing, people don't generally like this type of deck. You specifically want to make it to run hosers? If your group was into this, it would be easy to get them on board, right? Instead it sounds like you want it forced on people.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-20 1:49 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
RonB wrote:
I'd argue that sheoldred is far more toxic than braids

:facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-20 3:58 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RonB wrote:
First, who are you

This is an excellent sentiment. As your first ever post in this environment it might be worth taking a moment to introduce yourself. People have responded to you with some aggression, but you have burst into our forum like the Kool-Aide Guy without so much as a hello. It helps for us to know what kind of play environment you come from, do you play mostly online or paper, at home or at a card shop?

Now as to braids, yes it can be answered, but unlike a number of other stax items like winter orb, back to basics or stasis, when you answer that permanent everything goes back to the way it was. The stax player will have pulled ahead, but at least the rest of the table isnt going backwards. If you play braids and I don't have an answer I am losing permanents, every turn that passes makes it harder for me to respond and when someone does finally answer her it could very well be too late. The mulligan rules in commander have been different in the past specifically because playing commander whilst you're mana screwed is terrible.

Braids is the poster child for the ban criteria "Creates undesirable board states". If I were to slowly take cards off the list one at a time, I think braids would be one of the last.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-20 11:21 pm 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
I wouldn't object to a rather extensive unbanning. Since that's not how it works, you've got to make compelling arguments for the current least offenders. Recurring Nightmare would get you more discussion than Braids.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 1:02 am 
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Baron Cappuccino wrote:
I wouldn't object to a rather extensive unbanning. Since that's not how it works, you've got to make compelling arguments for the current least offenders. Recurring Nightmare would get you more discussion than Braids.


While true on both points, the first being that discussing Recurring Nightmare would get more response and the second that Recurring Nightmare obviously should be unbanned, the first response to such a thread would be "have you tried searching for previous discussions on this topic". It'd lead to nothing in the end, as there is no change in why cards are banned. Yes, new cards exist that answer problematic cards, but "run more answers" has never been a good argument. At least not on this forum.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 1:45 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
So I’m all for unbanning cards in the format. I don’t like how it feels like the RC wants to make the format as wide as possible for newer players in the community by protecting them from ‘unfun cards’.

On the other hand I don’t see how braids benefits the format. Cards that are more comparable that are not banned are nine deathmantle to reoccuring nightmare or seedborn muse to prophet of kruphix. These cards are at least comparable to one another, but I didn’t see a good example of that from braids. Have you tested it out in your own group? Have your tried to play her as your general on turn two with a token generator? How much fun vs toxicity is she providing to the game? These are the questions you need to answer before jumping the gun and saying something should or shouldn’t be banned.

On the other hand my group unbanned Geiselbrand and reoccuring nightmare. We don’t play sol ring or infinite combos so those cards are fine and easily played around.

People have a problem with seedborn muse and purphoros. Mostly in multi colored decks..

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 5:43 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Hi there RonB, and welcome to Commander... A few things... Firstly:

"Commander is designed to promote social games of magic.
It is played in a variety of ways, depending on player preference, but a common vision ties together the global community to help them enjoy a different kind of magic. That vision is predicated on a social contract: an agreement which goes beyond these rules to includes a degree of interactivity between players. Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game."

The main reason people bristle at Braids is because it violates the highlighted area in an almost violent way.

Braids leads to incredibly uninteractive, one sided games.

Commander is not and should not be played as Vintage Singleton. It is designed as a format to have fun, make sure everyone has fun, and play some wacky cards.

Secondly, I highly recommend reading this post by Sheldon:

http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254

as it gives great detail as to why things get and stay banned. Very few cards once on the list, get removed from the list. For good reason.

Lastly, remember, just because it is fun for you, does not mean it is fun for everyone. If all you do is suck the fun out of the game for other players, you will rapidly find yourself without people to play with.

TLDR: Braids (and other lockout/annoying strategies like that) are masturbating with cardboard. No one should be forced to sit there and watch you do it.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 9:06 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
TLDR: Braids (and other lockout/annoying strategies like that) are masturbating with cardboard. No one should be forced to sit there and watch you do it.

This. Or to phrase it another way from the masterpiece of a movie that is "Ford Fairlane: Rock and Roll Detective"*:
Ford Fairlane wrote:
It's like masturbating with a cheese grater; slightly amusing, but mostly painful

*quit looking at me like that the movie is Solid Gold.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 10:17 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
tgambitg wrote:
Commander is not and should not be played as Vintage Singleton. It is designed as a format to have fun, make sure everyone has fun, and play some wacky cards.

It is probably more correct to say that the design intent is not vintage singleton. It certainly CAN be played that way, but that's not what the RC is trying to promote, and Braids is a poster child for the kind of things that are being actively discouraged.

Thraximundar wrote:
On the other hand I don’t see how braids benefits the format. Cards that are more comparable that are not banned are nine deathmantle to reoccuring nightmare or seedborn muse to prophet of kruphix. These cards are at least comparable to one another, but I didn’t see a good example of that from braids. Have you tested it out in your own group? Have your tried to play her as your general on turn two with a token generator? How much fun vs toxicity is she providing to the game? These are the questions you need to answer before jumping the gun and saying something should or shouldn’t be banned.

Plus have reasonable arguments. "There is one new card in the 99 that might answer this potential general if you're in the right colors and ramp it out before she hits play" is not sound logic for unbanning a card, ESPECIALLY one that can be a general. Even if that card was 0 mana and colorless, that would not be reasonable logic, as you're talking about a card in the command zone that can take a giant dump on the game vs. maybe drawing a singleton answer to it from your 100 card deck.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-23 9:32 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
It is probably more correct to say that the design intent is not vintage singleton. It certainly CAN be played that way, but that's not what the RC is trying to promote, and Braids is a poster child for the kind of things that are being actively discouraged.

I really like the concept of the "poster child" and I think the RC uses it often and well. It's not really practical to ban stax and lockout decks, but you can ban Braids and Erayo as a message that this isn't what we want in the format. Similarly you can ban easy infinite combos that win in the first few turns, but you can ban Yawgmoths Bargain to send a message.

On that basis alone I like that Braids is banned. It doesn't stop you playing stax, but it does make you ask the question as to "why is this banned?" and maybe decide not to play that kind of deck unless you really want to.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-25 1:54 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
Commander is not and should not be played as Vintage Singleton. It is designed as a format to have fun, make sure everyone has fun, and play some wacky cards.

It is probably more correct to say that the design intent is not vintage singleton. It certainly CAN be played that way, but that's not what the RC is trying to promote, and Braids is a poster child for the kind of things that are being actively discouraged.
I agree with this revised description. It seems paradoxical to encourage every playgroup to find their own way to play and then insist on demoralizing the playstyles you don't find attractive. Also, I think that more productive discussions would be possible if we inculcated objectivity with our choice of words. Terms like: unfun, degenerate, antisocial, toxic, or undesirable are not and shouldn't be regarded as on an equal level with terms like: unbalanced, undiversifiable, uninteractive, or insuperable. Any discussion about rule changes should be less about excluding or self-righteously shaming certain strategies and more about including and diversifying more strategies. The game should just be a game and ideally one that stands on its own merits. The less a game has to rely on moral policing, the better.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-27 10:06 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You are assuming that an objective decision cannot be made based on subjective data. You can take a concept like fun, apply it across a wide spectrum of people and then make a decision based on what the average response is. I find this to be unfun is not the same as most people find this unfun. We assume the RC makes their decisions based on the feelings of many, not the feelings of few.

Being whipped can be considered objectively unpleasant and we can argue that you should not be allowed to whip someone without their explicit permission, despite the existence of people that specifically enjoy it.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-27 10:56 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
I really like the concept of the "poster child" and I think the RC uses it often and well.

We've probably been here before, but i am just going to throw it out again that is not "well". It leads people to think anything on the list is fair game and less people understand the 'intent' than the RC would like to imagine (also figure in how little traffic is quickly directed here when WOTC has plenty of info on their site and most people aren't forumgoers. We are on the official site and it's pretty low-use). It's like the phrase, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Really, if Winter Orb doesn't have a place in this format (for example), then just ban it.

specter404 wrote:
but you can ban Braids and Erayo as a message that this isn't what we want in the format.

I don't know if this is what posterchild means though. I think something like Trade Secrets or Worldfire is, in the way we don't want poorly-interactive cards for the structure of the format or stuff that rests the game pointlessly. Whether or not this format is the 'place' for stax, Braids and Erayo are extremely overpowered and unbalanced. If this was more anything goes those would still be broken and banned. It being banned doesn't indicate to any normal person that stax is unwelcome; stax being welcome doesn't mean that card in particular is belonging.

specter404 wrote:
Similarly you can ban easy infinite combos that win in the first few turns, but you can ban Yawgmoths Bargain to send a message.

If you want to indicate to people that simple, cheap combos are not welcome here, you ban a few of the best. That's what a posterchild would be, no? I don't think Bargain is primarily banned because combos and combo decks exist, that card just has tons of problems beyond that even in the closer-to-fair spectrum of decks and wouldn't/shouldn't be legal even if we didn't have combos.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-28 8:47 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
I don't know if this is what posterchild means though.

Well, it absolutely IS. But as always there's more to Braid's banning than just being the prototypical terrible funsuck card for jerks. For those that haven't been around long enough to know, there used to be a separate list of cards that were banned only as commanders, and it was decided a little while back to do away with that list. When that happened the choice needed to be made to either make those cards legal or just straight-up banned, and the (in my opinion obvious) choice was to ban them. Thus Erayo, Braids and Rofellos found themselves out of the format, likely for good.

All three of these are notorious for creating undesirable board states - Erayo and Braids by not letting you play the game and Roffles by creating unforgivable amounts of mana too fast and reliably.

It's also worth noting that no card is banned just to be a posterchild.

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