Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Feb-19 3:43 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 138 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 12:36 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
MrCool wrote:
Willbender wrote:
Simplification is always good, as understandability and approachability are always desirable qualities in a game.
"Dumbing down a game is always good for the game." ok dude... :roll:
Nice way to pull the quote out of context, or did you just not read the next sentence where I commented on the simplicity needing to be balanced against complexity where required?

The part that was taken out of context is still mostly correct anyways. :)

I mean, WotC has been proving that for a while -- removal of mana burn, removal of combat damage on the stack -- simplification of the game, and it's making it a better game overall (and it doesn't remove tactical options, it just changes them.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 2:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-18 11:41 am
Age: Drake
Location: Under a dead Ohio sky...
Tim Proctor wrote:
I like the change for one reason, rules simplification.

Rules simplification is all well and good, but I fail to see how adding more explicit exceptions to the way the game normally functions is in any way simplification.

This rule now affects ~150 more cards, some of which are very commonly played. So you have to consider this rule whenever you're using basically any removal/tuck/bounce spell or ability.

Coming at it from the other angle, you'll have to think about whether you want to CZ your commander or not much more often.

Hand vs CZ is not necessarily as straightforward a choice as Graveyard vs CZ, since hand size is limited.

Bottom of library or shuffle-in effects are probably pretty easy CZ calls, but what about top of library? Do you want to lose a card draw to be able to cast the commander for less next time, or is it worth incrementing commander tax hit to get the extra card? You have to take into account the entire state of the game when making that choice, as well as anticipate what could happen in the upcoming round of turns or two. That isn't always an easy thing to do, especially in this format.

If the RC had changed the rule to "If a Commander would change zones, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead" that at least the wording of the rule would have been simplification. But they decided against that (and rightly so, since it would be silly), so not even the wording is simpler.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 3:00 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tenminutegod wrote:
Rules simplification is all well and good, but I fail to see how adding more explicit exceptions to the way the game normally functions is in any way simplification.

Here's a quick litmus test -- if it takes you less time to explain the rules now than it did previously, then it's a simplification.

Pre-tuck rule:
* If your commander would go to the graveyard or exile zones, you can instead choose to move it to the command zone.
Post-tuck rule:
* If your commander would leave play, you can choose to move it to the command zone.

Seems simpler, no?

tenminutegod wrote:
Coming at it from the other angle, you'll have to think about whether you want to CZ your commander or not much more often.

That's strategy, not rules. If strategic depth is increased while also simplifying the rules -- that seems like it's a potentially very good rule change.

tenminutegod wrote:
If the RC had changed the rule to "If a Commander would change zones, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead" that at least the wording of the rule would have been simplification. But they decided against that (and rightly so, since it would be silly), so not even the wording is simpler.

Actual length of the rules, when written out, isn't a good indicator of it being simpler or not. How well it can be taught is.

In this case, the rule is more intuitive and it's simpler to describe to new players of the format -- thus it's a simpler rule overall than previously.

And being more intuitive is a huge step forward that I've not seen mentioned yet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 3:22 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
tenminutegod wrote:
If the RC had changed the rule to "If a Commander would change zones, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead" that at least the wording of the rule would have been simplification. But they decided against that (and rightly so, since it would be silly), so not even the wording is simpler.

You're looking at the wrong place for where simplification matters. It doesn't matter in the nitty-gritty details of the rules how it works; what matters is that in explaining it to a new player is simpler.

"If your commander gets countered or removed from play, you can set it aside like you did at the beginning of the game. It costs 2 more to cast every time you do that."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 5:50 am 

Joined: 2013-May-04 12:30 am
Age: Hatchling
Yes, the rules committee should disband. Hell, if it were up to me I'd probably suspend their DCI numbers and whatnot too. This decision basically broke the camel's back, I don't even really want to play Magic anymore because of it.

Headspinningly upset and frustrated.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 5:58 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
HappyPrimes wrote:
Yes, the rules committee should disband. Hell, if it were up to me I'd probably suspend their DCI numbers and whatnot too. This decision basically broke the camel's back, I don't even really want to play Magic anymore because of it.

Headspinningly upset and frustrated.


I see this type of comment a LOT right now, and what is never explained is WHY.

Can you articulate exactly why you're so upset?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 6:22 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
HappyPrimes wrote:
I don't even really want to play Magic anymore because of it.

Headspinningly upset and frustrated.

Good, cause you're not the type of person I want playing either. Now since you're not playing anymore sell me your collection for really cheap.

The casual player, who the format caters too, is the most hurt by tuck mechanics. The competitive player, who is not catered too, is the one who will easily recover from tuck via tutors or extensive draw. This makes the mechanics of tucking essentially negative against the casual player. I am guessing that you are towards the competitive side and think that somehow you tucking an opponent's General was effective, when it probably wasn't.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 6:33 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Apr-16 9:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Regina, SK
I don't really see the problem for competitive folks at all. I'd think they would be happy to remove something that's so high variance. Losing your general is obviously a big hit to any deck, unless they didn't plan to cast it at all (in which case it's a hit they take during deck building). Does someone deserve to win the game because they had Hinder mana open at the right time to tuck their opponent's general? Or because they drew their one copy of Hallowed Burial instead of Wrath of God this time? Punishing your opponent so severely with what basically amounts to luck feels like the opposite of what competitive players should want.

The more I think about this change, the more I like it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 6:37 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Stardust wrote:
I don't really see the problem for competitive folks at all. I'd think they would be happy to remove something that's so high variance. Losing your general is obviously a big hit to any deck, unless they didn't plan to cast it at all (in which case it's a hit they take during deck building). Does someone deserve to win the game because they had Hinder mana open at the right time to tuck their opponent's general? Or because they drew their one copy of Hallowed Burial instead of Wrath of God this time? Punishing your opponent so severely with what basically amounts to luck feels like the opposite of what competitive players should want.

The more I think about this change, the more I like it.


In any case, French 1v1 plays with exactly this version of the rule: If your Commander is tucked, you get to exile it to the Command Zone instead. No one there is complaining.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Atraxa Superfriends
Yidris Eldrazi (4C Devoid)
Sissay Angel Oath
Wort's Goblin Conspiracy
Gonti's Mega-Bouncy Castle


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 8:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Drake
papa_funk wrote:
Daramath wrote:
Tucking doesn't take a commander away permanently. Just temporarily with proper cards in a deck. Just saying.


AKA the subtle pressure towards more tutors.


so? tutors are good. if my deck ran nothing but french vanilla beaters and spot removal I'd still rather be able to tutor for the most useful french vanilla beaters and spot removal for the situation. I'd rather see the RC ban tutors than tucking in all honesty

_________________
Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 8:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
Gath Immortal wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
Daramath wrote:
Tucking doesn't take a commander away permanently. Just temporarily with proper cards in a deck. Just saying.


AKA the subtle pressure towards more tutors.


so? tutors are good. if my deck ran nothing but french vanilla beaters and spot removal I'd still rather be able to tutor for the most useful french vanilla beaters and spot removal for the situation. I'd rather see the RC ban tutors than tucking in all honesty



While I feel tutors take away from singleton formats there are just too many of them for the RC to ban even if they wanted to. I think we are better off asking wizards to print more anti-tutor cards.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt though. (Turn two Grand Arbiter sucks.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 9:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
ToBeFrank wrote:
Normally I don't support the lunatic fringe but when I know that the only reason Rafiq of the Many isn't banned as a commander (despite being freaking insane) is someone on the rules committee plays him there is some validity to this notion.

Can you cite any legitimate sources for that accusation? Or shall we all get the tinfoil hats out?
Tinfoil it is !
salems24 wrote:
we could just start our own RC?
YEp, get on it. When you have 1/1000 th of the following this one does I will be impressed.
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'd rather see the RC ban tutors than tucking in all honesty
This is why people generally dismiss your opinion Gath.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 9:57 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
Joz wrote:
5. To little communication from the rules committee. Like, what happened here? If we want to understand your decisions better, give us some information over the course of the YEAR of what exactly it is that lead you, the particular rules committee member, to this change. So far, all we have is "we want you to always have access to your commander."
.


This is the only part of Joz's post that I support, I always like to know what all goes into the choices the RC makes,and with a choice of this size i think something like the above would go a long way to temper down the angry and confusion from the community. Maybe as a post from someone other than Sheldon this time.

_________________
onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 11:20 am 

Joined: 2013-May-04 12:30 am
Age: Hatchling
tgambitg wrote:
I see this type of comment a LOT right now, and what is never explained is WHY.

Can you articulate exactly why you're so upset?


Imagine you're a blonde haired person who plays chess. Then one day, a black haired person, a brown haired person, and a red haired person on the internet all arbitrarily decided that blonde haired people aren't allowed to use bishops in chess anymore, and everyone in the world just decides to go along with it.

That's what happened, a group of people who have absolutely no right or place to tell anyone how to play a game just up and changed to rules to benefit some people at the expense of others. And the people who got screwed are just told to sit down and shut up because the game wasn't really meant for them in the first place.

I'm sick of it and its fucking infuriating. I'm not even a super competitive player, and I'm told I'M the problem with EDH because I think degenerate commanders, which see play in both casual and competitive, should have answers and counterplay that doesn't involve adding 20 more goddamn cards to the already too long ban list. Somehow I'm the problem when its not "fair" that tuck is primarily found in two colors, when the entire point of the color pie existing is so that mechanics aren't ubiquitous throughout all the colors.

At least if WotC were in charge of EDH and they made the same boneheaded decision its not that big a deal. WotC has made a ton of boneheaded moves in the past, and they're sure to make more in the future. At the very least they have some authority as opposed to the RC which is some high level judge, whom I have no respect for, and a bunch of nobodies. Even if WotC doesn't take control of the format, if the option were keeping the current RC in power versus never having another rules update because there's no longer a RC I would honestly choose the latter.

Nah, I think I'm just gonna go light my collection of fire or something. Apparently I'm everything thats wrong with EDH because I tucked some kid's Derevi one time to stop them from taking a dump on the rest of the game. The RC should disband, and they can get bent.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 11:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I should be on the RC. That'd solve a lot of problems with terrible rules changes and banning/non-bannings of certain cards.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 138 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: